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Posted: Jun. 16 2007, 10:19 ET


I've been toying with the notion that this board needs plans and drawings for what you could call the "Super-Simple Single" or some other such nonsense. †What it is: †The creation of a barreled action for a single-shot .22LR that is as simple as can be humanly engineered. † The action could be useable for either a pistol or rifle; in other words, be adaptable for a wooden pistol grip, or mounted in a stock.

Requirements for the gun would be:

1) The design must be SAFE to shoot.
2) uses a barrel liner in .22LR, so the barrel can be reproduced easily by anyone. †Not limited to some surplus barrel from Numrich, or an expensive barrel blank.
3) Minimum to zero welding or soldering
4) have an action that is legitimate, and not some gangsta zip-gun, or an action that has more than one piece, like a removeable breech block. †The gun must stand on its own.
5) Coil springs only, no flat springs
6) Easily adaptable to pistol or rifle use.
7) Any others?

I'd like to design an action that could be made from a good aluminum alloy if desired. †Possibly even the barrel. †A .22 liner mounted in a 5/8" diameter 7075 round is safe. †Armalite did it with their AR-7, no problems at all.

The action would be inline as much as possible, meaning there would not be significant contouring of metal. †The bulk of the system would be longer lengths of round or rectangular stock. †This would allow one to adapt the action to a rifle or pistol stock of wood, fulfilling requirement 6.

My initial thoughts are some sort of tip-up or break open action like a Stevens, except utilizing an inline striker rather than a hammer. †Keep the sear geometry clean and easy. †I'd make cocking separate from opening the action. †The only thing opening would do at most would be to lever the fired cartridge base up slightly to allow the shooter to pull the case out.

The goal is an action that almost any newbie could fabricate, and one that is modifiable as well if someone wanted to jazz it up.

Thoughts? †This might be a fun project that we could all get involved with, from design, to the fabrication of a prototype, to creation of plans.

Posted: Jun. 16 2007, 11:43 ET


Simple you say, Remington Model 33 bolt action 22.Nice little rifle and has 1 bolt to hold stock to the action or you could use it for the grip.It isnt very complicated in design.

Posted: Jun. 16 2007, 13:06 ET


Something similar to a Winchester 67 comes to mind. The barrel is the action. Rear of barrel is bored out/ milled, etc, to accomodate the bolt. Purty simple. Could be made easily out of a new or surplus .22 barrel.

Posted: Jun. 16 2007, 14:34 ET


I would think something that does not need to be made on a lathe or a mill would be the best way to go. Not everyone has access to that level of equipment. Keep it very simple - drill press, taps, dremel, hacksaw, files and emery cloth only being needed to complete the build.

The tip-up Jaco Western pistol design comes to mind for simplicity. Elsewhere on the forum someone was building a Jaco Western matched pair of pistol and carbine, so the design lends itself to being modified.

If you want to do away with the hammer and go in-line a firing pin, spring and cocking mechanism as used in the old Australian Lithgow .22 single shot bolt action would do the job. Instead of the movable bolt (pictured) you could have a firing pin & spring enclosed within the breech block with an external cocking knob as shown to pull back the firing pin against spring pressure with the trigger engaging the sear directly.

Posted: Jun. 16 2007, 15:45 ET


.....How about Bill Holmes' falling block? He said that you could use a round breechblock with low powered cartridges- which eliminates any and all square hole hassels.

.....Just a thought.

.....RVM45 † :thumbs:

Posted: Jun. 16 2007, 15:50 ET


RVM, do you have any pics of it? sounds interesting.

Posted: Jun. 16 2007, 16:18 ET


I drew this one during the Ultra era. It could work with a firing pin included in the striker instead of as a separate piece. (duh, now that I look at the sketch, I drew it both ways) :D The idea was for a tip up action.

Posted: Jun. 16 2007, 16:24 ET


I have to ask... why not use a hammer/firing pin? Then there are only 2 moving parts to make, the trigger and hammer. Like you said, the Stevens designs come to mind.

Posted: Jun. 16 2007, 19:19 ET


How about something like Fuzzbeans blowback pistol but with a tipup barrel rather than his pressed in barrel. You could make the barrel lug lock with a cross pin or spring loaded deal like a cross bolt safety (scasa did on his pistol).

Posted: Jun. 16 2007, 19:22 ET


I was thinkin of something similar when I was working on that 40mm. It uses a S&W hammer and sear, buy them & drop in.

Posted: Jun. 16 2007, 20:41 ET


Stevens Marksmans are the gun type that I would push..Can be made as pistol or rifle or shotgun......And....and...and.....I been thinking...I now got some muzzleloader barrels and thinking of various kinds of smokepoles that I might like to build and I then realize that could make one as an inline muzzleloader based on Marksman type action....A very versatile action design... '''cose I am predudiced 'cause I have built 5 Marksmans and I like shooting each one of them..

Posted: Jun. 16 2007, 20:56 ET


Swede, I think you are on the right track. Fuzzy's design almost required machining. We need something that doesn't have that requirement. Either round stock for the striker/bolt or maybe something like keystock and square tubing. The multi layer sheetstock receiver with screws seems like a good start. That build looks like it will hold up ok. Even deHaas recommends building that way. The liner for a barrel is good too, no need for a barrel, just a liner. Liners do cost more than barrels, but they are always available and can be worked into a design, no need for machining a barrel.
Looks like what we need to do is finalize a simple striker design that can be made from readily available stock. I would lean toward round; bolts and tubing or pipe are available anywhere. The breech block can be a chunk of steel the same size as the bolt, pinned into the receiver tube.
Put your thinking caps on. :)

oh, consider the bolt action as mentioned above... the 22LR can be held with no lugs other than the cocking handle. The bolt could be a piece of pipe with the striker inside. Cock by pulling back the striker. Load by actioning the bolt.


Posted: Jun. 16 2007, 21:34 ET


something like this

this is pretty simple

its not the pistol/rifle combo but it is a highly adaptable design, and does have the inline striker you want while maintaining sear simplicity

single shot survival rifle

and his other design are pretty sweet too

Posted: Jun. 17 2007, 01:00 ET


I've built both hammer and striker guns,  I think the hammer was easier to visualize, build, and modify when necessary.  I'm looking forward to this one.

Posted: Jun. 17 2007, 09:39 ET


BakaBomb, I like that SS survival gun. †I'd take that basic mechanism and straighten it out completely. †Set the pivot up so it is limited to 30 or 45 degrees, and engineer some sort of simple latch. †An extractor would be bonus points.

Mr Fudd, the only reason I thought "striker" rather than hammer is to avoid contouring the hammer. †Of course, we'll have to contour a trigger no matter what, unless we want to do some sort of alternate sear release.  So maybe a hammer is no big deal.

Posted: Jun. 17 2007, 12:52 ET


That's Sthone's site, He's a member here :thumbs:

Posted: Jun. 17 2007, 13:32 ET


why contour a trigger at all?

i see straight match triggers for ar variants all the time

so why not go with straight just to keep it extra easy to manufacture, then if someone wants a curved trigger face
they can tack it on acording to theyre own druthers:-)

Posted: Jun. 17 2007, 17:21 ET


I must admit, I do find Madjack's idea of using some premade parts rather appealing.

It does have the potential to save a lot of time and effort, and you could still make them yourself if you wished to do so.

Posted: Jun. 17 2007, 18:53 ET


Swede, when you say that it should be buildable as either a pistol or a rifle, are you referring to a firearm that can be reconfigured at will, such as an Uzi where the barrel and stock can be easily replaced or removed?  Or are you referring to something more like an AK, which can be built as either a pistol or a rifle, but cannot be readily reconfigured once the barrel is in place?

Posted: Jun. 17 2007, 20:43 ET


I'm thinking barreled action only, which can be mounted into either a rifle stock, or some sort of pistol grip. †Think of a Ruger Mk2. †The grip is an integral part of the mechanism. †I think it'd be cool to keep the striker/hammer, sear, springs, etc all relatively inline and close to the bore so that the package is relatively skinny.

There's no reason it couldn't be rapidly swapped from pistol to carbine, though, like a TC Contender. †We just have to avoid a short barreled rifle configuration at any given moment.

I was thinking on this a bit more today. †It'd also be desirable to use stock that is standard, and requires minimal cutting. †For example, the reciever section is two slabs of 1/8" thick sheet sandwiching a .500" core. The .500" core contains striker, sear, mainspring. †Likewise, the barrel is any material (I'm thinking bbl liner in some .500" thick stock) that will slide between the two 1/8" thick slab sides, then gets pinned there in a hingeing action.  

This way, the materials list might be "2 ea. 1/8" X 1.5" X 6" C1018 sheet; 1 ea 1/2" X 1.5" 1018 bar" etc. †It's a matter of shaping them a bit, then using button head cap screws or what have you to make the action sandwich.

Posted: Jun. 17 2007, 21:40 ET


To maintain the simplicity of construction, some compromises will probably have to be made regarding the rifle-length barrel.

One option might be to use a pistol-length barrel, but permanently attach a barrel extension.  This avoids the problem associated with drilling a 16"+ hole in stock for the barrel liner.

Another option might be to build a shell in which the barrel liner would be concealed.  The barrel liner would attach to the rest of the firearm as usual.  Since the barrel liner by itself would likely be too thin to withstand any sort of external abuse, a tube could sheath the barrel liner.  The end of the tube would correspond to the end of the barrel liner, and a cap attached to the end of the tube would have a hole drilled in it just large enough to accommodate the outside diameter of the barrel liner.  This way the barrel liner is protected from bumps and dings, and with the whole unit sealed up, it should look much like a bull barrel.  If the barrel liner by itself happens to be too thin to handle the pressure of .22lr, sections of rod could be cut, a hole drilled through each piece, and then the completed sections slid over the barrel liner to act as reinforcing.

Other than that, all I can think of is to use an actual rifle-length barrel.

Posted: Jun. 17 2007, 23:49 ET


I think maybe a tool outline would be good at this point . You know like can it use a mini lathe  or only a drill press . Also maybe a 1022 barrel instead of a liner, their cheap and readily available and also uniform. Cuts down on that chambering thing.

Posted: Jun. 18 2007, 00:52 ET


What do you think about bandsaw, belt sander, drillpress, and hand tools.  I think it would be a challenge to build something without a mill or lathe.
Also by using Scasa's idea of 10-22 barrels one lathe operation would be eliminated.

Posted: Jun. 18 2007, 08:08 ET


I have used DOM steel tubing 5/8 OD 5/16 ID to make up 22lr barrels before with liners usually all you have to do is ream out the tubing a bit to fit the liner better and epoxy or acraglass or silver or soft solder in place and you are good to go.

Posted: Jun. 18 2007, 08:37 ET


I think this one has been posted here before, but this is a nice simple action/barrel that fits the criteria for this build....

Maxwell G. Atchisson
U.S. Patent number 4,299,046
Single Shot Survival Rifle

Posted: Jun. 18 2007, 15:25 ET


Quote (nevadablue @ June 16 2007,20:56)


oh, consider the bolt action as mentioned above... the 22LR can be held with no lugs other than the cocking handle. The bolt could be a piece of pipe with the striker inside. Cock by pulling back the striker. Load by actioning the bolt.

Agreed.  Other than having to center-drill a steel rod (and a Grade 5 bolt is plenty tough enough and easily found at the local hardware store in standard sizes that are big enough) to insert a striker mechanism, a .22LR bolt is one of the simplest mechanisms out there.

Having it as a manual cocker (so that after closing the bolt you have to pull on a cocking knob at the rear of the bolt) makes it even more idiot proof -- but I would recommend a non-protruding inertial firing pin then.

Look at the Cricket rifles they're making to be kid's first rifles.  (You can even get one in Barbie pink furniture for the little girls!  I was SO tempted, but she's not yet 2, and I'll look around when she's mature enough to teach firearms.  Besides, "purple" is her favorite color this month. . . :icon_smile_big:  )

Posted: Jun. 18 2007, 22:51 ET


Here is some food for thought

Posted: Jun. 18 2007, 22:53 ET


and another

Posted: Jun. 19 2007, 00:04 ET


Oooh, I like the one with the white grips... nice looking pistol.  Got plans?

Posted: Jun. 19 2007, 00:17 ET


ok, who saw it coming

ok rough draft just working on the barrel to receiver latch at this point

barrel is only rough, im designing to use ONLY a lathed barrel
this is one thing at a time, since were going think tank

everything else im designing for construction with only a good metal saw, and a decent drill press with some decent bits.

eveything else is just drill and tap, shape to taste, screw together.

im thinking a spring loaded spring latch that tranverses the action to release

bur nyway heres the start, no handle or trigger action,
just basics right now.
both blocks cut from same size bar stock (very drill pressable)

i know its rough but more to come

and seriously yall better give me some feedback on this design or i swear to god it go downhill into "artsy fartsy" land. :D  :D  :D

Posted: Jun. 19 2007, 00:19 ET


pushed button too soon

DOH

Posted: Jun. 19 2007, 00:29 ET


Quote (marvkaye @ June 19 2007,00:04)
Oooh, I like the one with the white grips... nice looking pistol.  Got plans?

actually that one is made by whamo on a bb gun frame. Pretty simple though . One could lay it out to favor a 1911 and use off the shelf grips.

Posted: Jun. 19 2007, 08:09 ET


Quote (Swede @ June 16 2007,10:19)
The goal is an action that almost any newbie could fabricate, and one that is modifiable as well if someone wanted to jazz it up.

Swede . explain again WHY design a gun any newbie could fabricate?  ........  
.
 Yesterday I fiddlefarted around for a couple hours to grind a spade wood boring drill bit into shape to be used instead of an 11/16 ballnosed endmill (that I didnt have)..I then used it in cutting the barrel channel in underside of piece of 6061 aluminum I was carving into being a scope base for an old Harrington and Richardson .22 pistol......
.
..I wonder about newbies starting out with few tools when even I have not got every tool for the job yet I been acquiring tools for 30 years..Personally  I will not encourage a person to build guns unless he already has a mostly complete metalsworking shop...This is a good hobby if you already have all the machines but its really gonna resist your efforts if you have to whack at it with just a drillpress and a dremel...

Posted: Jun. 19 2007, 09:51 ET


Quote (ALPHAWOLF45 @ June 19 2007,08:09)
Quote
Swede . explain again WHY design a gun any newbie could fabricate? †........ †

Alphawolf, why not? †If the design is sound, and relatively easy, it'll hook people into further builds, expanding their shop, etc.

How many guys do we have come through the site, introduce themselves, then get discouraged because there's really nothing they can accomplish, because either they don't have enough tools, or they feel it is beyond them? †Then they disappear and are never heard from again.

The obvious answer is an 80% gun, but not everyone wants an AR-15 or 1911. †Both can be expensive.

I'm not one of those tin-foil hat guys who think we will soon be fighting a guerilla war against some oppressor, but I do think there's something cool about minimalist weaponry, built with modest tools.  I guess I don't really understand your objection?? † ???

Posted: Jun. 19 2007, 09:59 ET


BakaBomb, good progress.  I need to stop cheerleading or musing and actually start modeling.

More thoughts: †Do we want to make use of off the shelf parts that are easily available now? †I'm thinking of stuff like an AR-15 hammer and trigger, plus springs. †We know the geometry and pin layout, the sear is pre-made, no heat treatment, case-hardening, or stoning required. †You could make an "AR Sandwich" type of reciever, drill the pin holes, drop in the parts, and be done with it. †I'd skip the selector and safety, and maybe replace that with a transfer bar or a safety composed of a blocking bar, so the hammer fall wouldn't hit a striker.

Hmm, how to cock it? †You could use an M-16 hammer, and somehow modify that little hook in back, build it up with a clamp-on thumb pad.

Just thinking out loud! †

Posted: Jun. 19 2007, 10:50 ET


Quote (Swede @ June 19 2007,09:51)
built with modest tools. †I guess I don't really understand your objection?? † ???

I encourage my friends who already have machineshops to try their hand at building a gun project on the side....And I got a friend down the road who really has talent with a dremel and a drillpress and has built some fine looking guns with no more than that-- I always am encouraging him to get himself a lathe and a mill...But I cant imagine encouraging a fellow with minimal equipment to launch into this hobby....But I have no objection to it.. Everybody starts out with little or nothing to work with.

Posted: Jun. 19 2007, 15:13 ET


[quote=Swede,June 19 2007,12:59][/quote]
Quote
More thoughts:  Do we want to make use of off the shelf parts that are easily available now?


Definitely NO off the shelf parts except a barrel (liner)

I would suggest holding the project(s) to 22 LR Only...

Now the WHY: I would rather fail* initially with my own parts... than have success with factory parts!!!

The 22 LR should be obvious, but i edited it IN ... low power, and easy to acquire barrel liners...... and an assumption, fairly easy to ream (?????????????????)

I do think the idea of Single Shot tipping barrel provides the most appropriate Beginners BUILD.

I am in that position myself, and am and have been looking at JUST that design!

fail* ... I have never looked at a flaw in design as "failure", I have always continued on with the design too completion... through modifying and or repairing... What is learned in that PROCESS is much more valuable than ten successful projects with "no issues" JMTCW !

Quote
I'd skip the selector and safety, and maybe replace that with a transfer bar or a safety composed of a blocking bar, so the hammer fall wouldn't hit a striker.


(Notice I am cutting and pasting in, the concepts I LIKE of your post, Swede)!!!

I like Transfer Bars... They provide safety... however, can they be designed and made by the Beginner?

If one were to use a tube receiver, a bolt action could be designed that could incorporate a "safe position" and the the equipment needs would still be small...

I am reminded of my learning Silver Smithing/Jewelery...

I decided use files and NOT to use a Flex shaft, because "it would take me hours to files a mistake that a flex shaft could do in a microsecond".

The basic "L" of a bolt actions movement is just Three holes plus interconnecting empty area in between them!

That can be overlapping holes (of course) and then the File Work.

File work TEACHES fitting so much better than any other Single tool that I can think of!

Just thinking out loud!

This is, i think, one of the BEST threads I have read in many a day upon here!!!!

More on "me"... I had JUST bought my Mini Mill (a Micro Mark) product, when I was forced to move... and that was into an apartment....

I became greatly discouraged about "building" guns... and have slowly come back to the reality... I can do it here...

I built an Over floor (versus a sub floor) to protect my carpeted area.... and am (still slowly) building the benches and etc to set up...

I am now fortunate to have a good neighbor on both sides of me who will not be complaining of "noises" they may hear...

And this thread is a VERY motivating reason to continue (maybe a bit faster arthritis is the limiting factor)

Phil

Posted: Jun. 19 2007, 15:30 ET


In another post, I was sharing how I was doing a CAD from a PDF patent on Foxes Tip Up...

Somewhere else someone mentioned that the use of barrel pressure to secure the tip up during firing of the gun was interesting....

As I was redrawing this piece, i had to re work the hammer sear and trigger sear...

I did a "dimension" on the hammer, as I just could not get the results down the way I wanted to... the area shows a semi circle at the "end" of what appears to be parallel walls of the sear area...

I came up with a Dim. of .092" across the flats of the sear, then did a Dim. on the trigger....  

I had drawn it to 0.087" !!!!!!!!!

My first thought was "Wow, that fits"!

Then I thought, but that is ONLY 5 Thous of space that the trigger "fits" into the hammer...

That is File WORK, for sure!!!

Could a better fit FOR that SEAR be Ten Thous?  12??????

file work!

Thanks Swede, for this thread!!!!!

:notworthy:  :notworthy:  :notworthy:

Posted: Jun. 19 2007, 17:38 ET


In my mind, this home gun building is something to be approached on several different "fronts." There are some fronts, fully valid in their own way, that I don't expect to get into much. Replicating antiques, or building using 80% receivers or factory-made bolts or hammers, for example.

What particularly interests me is the development and construction of designs specifically intended for home building. Within this area, I can see at least 3 fronts on which to progress. One would be like my current blowback project. Something challenging and impressive, basically up to commercial safety standards, yet entirely doable with typical hobby-grade machine tools. Here we would not shy away from doing substantial machining, yet when broken down into steps each operation ought to be well within the abilities of a reasonably skilled person. The only real compromise in safety versus a modern commercial firearm might be some relaxation of "drop test" standards; in other words, individual parts are not so finely balanced to guard against accidental firing from jars and impacts as some modern designs are. Say like we'd go back to 1970 safety standards, or something -- not so bad.

At the other end of the spectrum would be something like my "Yooper Assault Rifle." On this front, we try to reduce firearm construction down to something almost anybody could do, with little more than hand tools and a few woodworking power tools. Safety standards pretty much go out the window, though obviously we don't want to build anything that's not basically strong enough to fire without blowing up.

Now the third front is somewhere in between these two extremes, and probably what Swede had in mind here.

I personally see little advantage in using barrel liners, except for short-barrelled tip-up or multi-barrelled pistols. You could put the liner into a tube, as was suggested, but if you can buy barrels from eBay or on special from Numrich, why go through all that trouble to get something basically less desirable? Sometimes at gun shows, junk shops, etc. you can pick up old barrels or barrelled receivers for just a couple dollars. Your local gunsmith or pawnshop might have a bunch of them stood up in the back corner.

Currently a mini-mill costs $480. You could get that plus enough tooling to handle the specific tasks to cover one established firearm design for $1000 easily, and you'd have the machine and most of your tooling left in good shape when you finished. Compared to paying $3000 for a modest sized outboard motor and no boat, or $4500 for a beginner-grade snowmobile and no trailer, or $2650 for a Kawasaki 125cc motorcycle that might get you beat up by Harley guys, I think $1000 is a pretty reasonable price to start a hobby that you can enjoy every evening year-round in any weather. I see no real reason to shy away from machining.

But if avoiding machining is the goal, then the old faithful sandwich construction is bound to be one of the best options. Along with the creative use of tubes and rods, wood, and maybe pantyhose. Far from trying to discourage this project, I hope something worthwhile results from it. But if the idea is for it to be a standardized starting project for inexperienced people, I just encourage everybody to keep some minimum level of safety in mind as far as both breeching strength and trigger function. Getting shot or blown up by your new creation would be enough to discourage anybody from a hobby.

Posted: Jun. 19 2007, 22:25 ET


What about a pin like this? you rotate it and it will unlock the barrel so it swings down rotating it back will make it lock inplace.

Posted: Jun. 19 2007, 22:26 ET


Grrr picture is not posting.

Posted: Jun. 20 2007, 00:09 ET


Mr. Bean,

I think you have stated the case for this thread quite well.

I have followed many posts here, while NOT doing anything of real merit to show, due to the limitations mentioned above...

Reading Swedes initial post:

Quote
The creation of a barreled action for a single-shot .22LR that is as simple as can be humanly engineered.  


...Flat out brought inspiration to me!!!

So, looking at all the graphics that were posted, I started of designing "my first gun" from "the ground up"..

Fuzzbean, you mentioned Safety concerns...

So I am going to attempt to post a .dwg of the safety I designed, using the most simple of products.

Posted: Jun. 20 2007, 00:31 ET


EDITED that did not work, here is a png screen capture, and from photobucket, Sheesh!

Safety First

Now, I know it worked, but I edited it again...  the Top view is in the Safe Position, the lower view is the ready to Fire Position

I tried to delete the Octet file but could not figure out how to do so....

Phil

Posted: Jun. 20 2007, 09:29 ET


Excellent points everyone. †FB, your vision is exactly what I'm thinking of. †It will be difficult, but certainly not impossible, to make a reasonably handsome, and 100% safe, barreled action, with no machines other than the following:

Bench Drill Press - $85 at Lowe's (You've GOT to have a drill press.)
Dremel - $50 (Optional; Basic contouring)
Hacksaw - $10 (Stock cutting)
Silicon Carbide wet/dry paper - $10 (finishing, "stoning")
Taps/dies (4-40 to 10-32) - $25
Bench vise - $30
Epoxy / sleeve Loctite - $10 (For liner, if used)

And the big one... Files - $50. †A decent assortment + elbow grease = any gun part known to man. †Files can do 85% of what a small mill can do. †They can't pocket, but just about everything else, they can. †

I think any design that can be executed with these tools, can be totally jazzed up with a mill. †In other words, you can execute the design to a survivalist minima, or... you can contour it nicely, bevel edges, round it off, etc, with a mill. †Go from basic to deluxe.

Guys, here's the reason I like barrel liners. †They're cheap, to begin with. †But the big one is this: †Let's say we make the design to use a "Idaho Armory Deluxe 10-22 bbl" or a "Numrich surplus octagon bbl". †In three years, a newb is going to attempt the project, and they'll post "Hey, Idaho Armory is out of business, and Numrich is out of stock" or something like that. †They'll be forced to substitute at high cost, and/or what they find to substitute will be dimensionally incorrect. †With a liner, we know we can start with dimensionally correct mild steel (or aluminum) stock, drill it out, slip in a liner, and chamber it. †I'm thinking that we could use RECTANGULAR stock for the barrel, which lends itself well to a tip-up pistol. †A round bbl will require soldering or connecting a pivot lug in some fashion.

The big problem with a liner is that we'll be limiting ourselves to a pistol, as drilling out blank, rifle-length stock for a liner is not a nooby operation.

Oooh, maybe someday, we could put a kit together, including bar stock, pins, fasteners, springs, liner, and plans. †:p

Posted: Jun. 20 2007, 10:24 ET


Quote (Swede @ June 20 2007,09:29)
The big problem with a liner is that we'll be limiting ourselves to a pistol, as drilling out blank, rifle-length stock for a liner is not a nooby operation.

This suggestion could get ugly but there is no reason that a barrel liner cant be centered inside thinwalled square or round tubing and the big space between liner and inner tubing wall can be filled with polyester resinote/ fiberglas,,, or zinc...That way you sidestep need to drill a solid rod and are easily able to make rifle barrel lengths.

Posted: Jun. 20 2007, 12:27 ET


Here's a Question? † †Would a liner (if in a rifle) have to be completely surrounded along the entire length of the barrel? †

When I designed my SSSR I knew I couldn't drill a 16" hole so I figured I would just drill the front and back about 3 inches and mill out everything in the middle.
I planned on using a thicker piece of barrel than a liner so I'm not sure if it work for an actual barrel liner.

Or.......Just a quick thought ???

Say you have a 5/8" tube for the barrel and receiver you could find a aluminum round bar than would fit in that tube, cut it into say 4" pieces, drill those out on any drill press and press the pieces into the tube and then press the liner into the whole thing.

-Steve

Posted: Jun. 20 2007, 14:23 ET


I don't know, but judging from the thin barrel on my old Freedom Arms mini-revolver, I'd say for .22 LR a liner would be safe if supported only at the chamber end. I'd guess 3" would be more than enough. If those liners really wanted to bulge or crack, we'd hear more about it happening from imperfect installations with Acraglass, etc.

If one did split, being enclosed in an outer jacket would still protect the shooter.

But I wonder... any legal issues with having what amounts to a 90% complete silencer built into the gun barrel?

Posted: Jun. 20 2007, 15:27 ET


Quote (Fuzzbean @ June 20 2007,14:23)
But I wonder... any legal issues with having what amounts to a 90% complete silencer built into the gun barrel?


Good point there, I'd never really thought about that.

On mine I wouldn't have to worrie as the whole bottom of my barrel is open, as for using a tube I meant fill the whole tube with 4" peices and then we wouldn't have to worrie about the liner either. †

-Steve

Posted: Jun. 20 2007, 15:30 ET


Fuzz,

Until the thing blows out and actually becomes a "silencer", no worries.

But, while deep drilling is difficult, and some people are wary of liners supported only a short ways from the breech, there is another option.  (I'm wary only from a STRUCTURAL standpoint -- even the skinniest rifled barrel you can think of is still WAY thicker than pressur demands -- it's thick for resitance to being bent into a pretzel.)

Take your barrel support, and split it lengthwise.  Then channel out (like a barrel channel in a stock) room for half of the liner in each.  Bolt together into a light compression fitting.  Voila!  a fully supported liner, WITGOUJT deep drilling!

I wouldn't want to do it with a 120mm NATO smoothbore, but for low powered cartridges, it should be fine.

Posted: Jun. 20 2007, 16:44 ET


Maybe support the liner at each end inside a larger tube, then wrap the center section with pantyhose soaked in epoxy.

I agree the liners must be strong enough for normal pressures, but there ought to be some support or at least a shield to offer extra protection in case of bore obstructions, etc.

Posted: Jun. 20 2007, 17:14 ET


I must not have been clear --

Full length barrel support.  Basically, "bed" the liner into metal (aluminum would work), with an "upper" and a "lower" support that bolt together and support the entirity of the length.

It would FUNCTION the same as if you deep drilled your outer sleeve, and then split it in half, only to bolt it back together.  But it could be made by cutting a channel, not drilling a hole.

Posted: Jun. 20 2007, 17:22 ET


I understood that -- I think. Just thinking along my own lines.

What you describe would be fine for a pistol. While entirely doable in any length, wouldn't it get a bit clumsy in lengths over 16"?

Posted: Jun. 20 2007, 18:06 ET


Just a little more food for thought... how about a tube in a tube in a tube ???  Jfettig made a pretty slick upper for his MKII using an outer tube with an ID the same as the bolt OD.  Inside of that is another tube with the same OD as the bolt and the same ID as the OD of a 22 liner.  The liner is the 3rd tube.  Here's a link to his build... page 5 is where the fun photos are.

Posted: Jun. 20 2007, 22:25 ET


You could wind wire around it to a certain diameter and then slide a tube over it. They reinforced bazookas like that during the korean war I think, or was it WWII?

Posted: Jun. 20 2007, 22:48 ET


ok maybe im vague on this

but you want a single shot firearm easily converted from rifle to pistol. and your talking barrels with bolt on support structures with your barrel line supported by the chamber?

well if were doin this why not just make a real empty shell around the liner cap it front and back with plugs then fill the whole thing with epoxy? if you used like metal of carbon fiber screen and wrapped that tight around the liner before you poured your epoxy you get full support weight reduction and the screen would act like a reinforcing superstructure.

like making your own composite wrapped barrel, well exactly like that:-) youd have to fire alot of rounds to heat the epoxy enough to melt, and if you invest in high temprature epoxy youd never have to worry

Posted: Jun. 20 2007, 23:04 ET


something like this

liner is blue
spacers in green
outer tuber grey

fill all the space between blue and grey with epoxy

well what yall think workable?

Posted: Jun. 20 2007, 23:12 ET


Since the barrel is the hardest thing to fit and you must assume that a beginner will follow directions blindly, why do a design that can be adapted to any barrel or barrel liner and give instructions on how to do the adaptation? Almost any of the methods that have covered would fit the above conditions with the barrel supported at both ends being the best in my opinion. If the tubing is square, it could be done with only a drill press.

Posted: Jun. 20 2007, 23:32 ET


well yeah they all would work but its all about minimization of tooling while maintaining safety.

yall might be ok with a barrel line being free floating in the middle all im gonna say is "theres a reason its called a barrel LINER"

it might work great the first few rounds or even more, but what happens with your first +p round. or your 3000th round.

Posted: Jun. 21 2007, 01:55 ET


Quote (BakaBomb @ June 20 2007,22:32)
yall might be ok with a barrel line being free floating in the middle all im gonna say is "theres a reason its called a barrel LINER"

it might work great the first few rounds or even more, but what happens with your first +p round. or your 3000th round.

I did some experimenting a few years back with a homebuilt tension barrel on a 10-22.  Baisically a really thin unsupported barrel with a shoulder at the chamber end and a nut on the muzzle end with a hollow tube in between.  It was an experiment to see if one could tune in the accuracy by adjusting the tension.  I didn't see much difference in accuracy an either direction but WOW... you could really screw up point of impact with just a slight adjustment of the tension at muzzle end.

Anyway, my barrel was not much more than the diameter of a liner for most of its length and I did not notice any ill effects as far as pressure safety.  As extra support for the "unsupported liner" theory... look most .22 semi-auto pistols that have the slide riding over top of the barrel (like a 1911) rather than off the back (like a Buckmark).  I have a Jennings 22 and know for a fact that the barrel on that is no larger diameter than a liner.  Granted it is not that long though...

I think doing Rodgervich's sandwich built falling block as a bolt-together would be completely doable with Swede's tooling limitations.  Someone with patience, reasonable skills with hand tools, patience, a desire to complete the project, and patience could turn out something worth showing off.  Making the plates and blocks out of Fortal may be possible also.

Posted: Jun. 21 2007, 02:47 ET


The image I previously uploaded showed a series of lines on the safe position (top) image.

Each line represented an increase of .030 inches, That being a sliding fit I.D. over the previous O.D.

That is in Brass... I believe the company is K&G it is from a hobby shop... but they also make the stuff in Aluminum, with the same "slip fit" I have used this stuff for years, it can be joined together with Epoxy, soft or hard solders, even super glue.

Largest Diameter is 5/8ths inch... 12 inches long in Brass, aluminum is up to 36 inches length.

What I am considering is the barrel liner, 5/16" O.D., then a series of the brass tubings, to get to the I.D of the 5/8ths O.D.Diameter brass.

The barrel is dropped into a single (or doubled) 12 inch length, of the .625 Brass, with those pre-installed "bushings", either full length, or maybe a "chamber Pressure area" of say 1 1/2 inches... then at the end, say a support system of 1 inch.

The 32 inch long barrel liner that Brownell's sells, if cut at 2 (pieces) 7.5 inches will leave a 17 inch length for a future rifle build..

Cobbler, since you just posted about a very thin barrel project
Quote
my barrel was not much more than the diameter of a liner for most of its length and I did not notice any ill effects as far as pressure safety


Do you think that what I posted will be strong enough for chamber pressure???

I would definitely silver solder the various layers together first, then maybe soft solder or just JB Weld the final fit up into the outer brass barrel...

The firing pin/bolt is currently designed to be around 3 inches long, cut and filed from a 3/8 inch Diameter CRS.

The Spring will of course be an off the shelf from an ORANGE BOX hardware type store.... to keep in the thoughts of simple to obtain.

I have yet to strongly decide upon the bolt opening or the ending of the receiver... a couple options for study!

This URL link will show an end view of the Barrel Liner, I.D., O.D. then the layers of brass, increasing as I said in .015 increases (providing a 1/32 inch increase) in each O.D. brass tube.

[/URL]Barrel Liner Brass Bushings

Edited, my upload says .015 Diameter, that is supposed to read RADIUS!  

The radius X 2 provides the .030 (approx) increase, Duh!

Posted: Jun. 21 2007, 02:57 ET


Quote (Fuzzbean @ June 20 2007,14:23)
I don't know, but judging from the thin barrel on my old Freedom Arms mini-revolver, I'd say for .22 LR a liner would be safe if supported only at the chamber end. I'd guess 3" would be more than enough. If those liners really wanted to bulge or crack, we'd hear more about it happening from imperfect installations with Acraglass, etc.

If one did split, being enclosed in an outer jacket would still protect the shooter.

But I wonder... any legal issues with having what amounts to a 90% complete silencer built into the gun barrel?

Free-float AR forends are pretty close to that, and there have been no legal issues there.  If anything, the AR forends could be more readily converted to silencers since they can be removed easily for modification.  A more-or-less permanent shroud around the barrel shouldn't be a problem.

Posted: Jun. 21 2007, 17:03 ET


How about this?  5 moving parts.  Take down.

Posted: Jun. 21 2007, 17:09 ET


Yes!  It does seem like rolling blocks get ignored regarding the scratchbuilts around here and they are such a simple yet proven and sturdy design when done properly.  Combine a rolling block design with sandwich built construction and you should have a buildable project for even the most modestly equiped builder.

Posted: Jun. 21 2007, 20:11 ET


The Mendoza K-62 pistol is a single shot rolling block design with a laminated frame and hammer. The block was a piece of flat steel. I understand that Rexio had a version of it out a few years ago.

The Mendoza that I examined was well made and accurate. It would be simple to build with a drill press and hand tools.

Perhaps, somebody could come up with a picture.

Posted: Jun. 21 2007, 22:25 ET


I think Swede's idea of using barrel liners is good. Like he said, liners are available. Sometimes 10-22 barrels are easy to find, sometimes not. One could subsititute a barrel he has to nearly any design, with some thinking and tinkering. Let's base it on a liner and tubing, both easily available.
I have some 3/8" liners that would be fine for pistol barrels, they were almost free from Numrich. I think they were 1.80 each if you bought 10.
Anyway, how about we settle on a simple tubing/liner barrel and go on to the action design? :)

Posted: Jun. 21 2007, 23:00 ET


That works for me .
That rolling block looks pretty interesting Might be tricky to cut the arcs on the hammer and block but interesting just the same . Maybe some sort of jig with a rotary file in a drill press. You could use the manual shaper method in a drill press if the receiver was brass or aluminum

Posted: Jun. 21 2007, 23:31 ET


Here we go, simple.

Posted: Jun. 21 2007, 23:36 ET


overall view

Posted: Jun. 22 2007, 00:55 ET


Have you seen the sheetmetal version of that one ???  From the pictures I have seen, it looks like a piece of crap but it sure got the gears turning regarding build possiblities.

Posted: Jun. 22 2007, 01:11 ET


Pics?

Posted: Jun. 22 2007, 01:23 ET


Page 145-147... Stevens No.11 Junior.  Can someone snag a photo out of the book?  I'm not set up to do it right now.  I thought you were showing a 14-1/2 "Little Scout" but you have a Remington Model 6.

Were did you get that color photo?

Posted: Jun. 22 2007, 01:28 ET


Here

http://www.chuckhawks.com/remington_rollingblock_no6.htm

Posted: Jun. 22 2007, 10:10 ET


Quote (nevadablue @ June 21 2007,22:25)
I have some 3/8" liners that would be fine for pistol barrels, they were almost free from Numrich. I think they were 1.80 each if you bought 10.
Anyway, how about we settle on a simple tubing/liner barrel and go on to the action design? :)

NevadaBlue, I have those exact same bbl liners!  I think I bought twenty.  They are an unbelievable bargain, and quite a bit thicker than a normal liner.  In fact, I'd bet they could easily fire a .22 unsupported, they are that thick.

All the ideas so far sound good.  I really think it'd be nice to have an extractor.  It doesn't have to be automatic.  A manual extractor would be fine... tip up the barrel (or drop a block, whatever), thumb a little lever, and have the catridge shell pop right out.

Posted: Jun. 22 2007, 10:54 ET


How about stevens model 15? 5 moving parts. Or a stevens junior it already look like a homemade rifle. and minimal stock shaping required  :lolup:


The links are for the steven's 15.
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a216/sirrockalot/100_3491.jpg Put together.
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a216/sirrockalot/100_3500.jpg Trigger and sear.
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a216/sirrockalot/100_3509.jpg Bolt
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a216/sirrockalot/100_3496.jpg bolt face it could be flat.
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a216/sirrockalot/100_3506.jpg trigger and sear showing bolt release.
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a216/sirrockalot/100_3500.jpg
  The Stevens m15 action can be held to the stock with a nut jb welded to the action. The trigger could be bent out of a piece of thin rod.The sear is just a piece of cold roll with two holes in it.  The action could be a piece of black gas pipe with a piece of steel stock driven in and it would be okay with just a friction fit or you could pin it in. then drill a hole in the piece of steel stock and epoxy the .22 liner in. You can make it a take down rifle or build it as a pistol. If you want mesurments or better pictus I can do it.

Posted: Jun. 22 2007, 13:34 ET


This is probably the Remington Patent that is referred to in the article about the Remington No. 6 rolling block rifle.

Posted: Jun. 22 2007, 13:35 ET


...and this looks like the competing Stevens Patent

Posted: Jun. 22 2007, 23:18 ET


Camsfirie,
That patent is of the Stevens I took a pic of back in this thread.  It is the side lever Crackshot made 1900to around 1913.
Dennis

Posted: Jun. 23 2007, 09:57 ET


Do you guys want to replicate one of these patents, or attempt a design that is original, but draws on these actions for ideas and simplicity?  I'm leaning towards the latter.

I've got a few mental images that I need to model in Rhino3d.  I'll try to get something posted in a few days.  Rhino can export to most modeling formats.  It'd be fun to take the design, and whoever has a 3D modeler, can add to, take from or otherwise chop up the design, then repost it.  A true group effort.

Posted: Jun. 23 2007, 10:52 ET


I've just been throwing out ideas so far since I'm still in a cast and drawing anything is impossible but I was hoping some others would throw in a quick sketch or too  of a tip up or bolt action. I've got some Ideas for the stevens style but nothing on paper yet

Posted: Jun. 23 2007, 10:58 ET


I have a sketch I need to scan.

Posted: Jun. 23 2007, 14:13 ET


Quote (Swede @ June 23 2007,12:57)
Do you guys want to replicate one of these patents, or attempt a design that is original, but draws on these actions for ideas and simplicity?  I'm leaning towards the latter.

I've got a few mental images that I need to model in Rhino3d.  I'll try to get something posted in a few days.  Rhino can export to most modeling formats.  It'd be fun to take the design, and whoever has a 3D modeler, can add to, take from or otherwise chop up the design, then repost it.  A true group effort.

Swede,

I do not have Rhino CAD, but I will develop the Remington #6
into a .dwg

I am doing my own design as well, and have decided to use a small length of 5/16 I.D. steel for 1.5 inches from the breech forward to help retain the chamber pressure...

That may be "over developing" the area but better safe than sorry.... Right?

Phil

:icon14:

Posted: Jun. 23 2007, 14:22 ET


ok, ok, gotta see some of these ideas. Scasa, get that cast off and start drawing! :D
Swede, yes, I like the idea of creating our own design based on good ideas from things we know work... :cool:

Posted: Jun. 23 2007, 22:29 ET


I would love to see the variations that would come out of working one set of plans and then putting in the various changes...

I have spent most of this afternoon on the Remington Rolling Block  #6 that was posted... I hope to be able to upload the .dwg tomorrow....

NB,

Is there a something I am doing wrong to upload???

I tried the first time and got one of the octet thingers...

tried a jpg, then a png and no photos showed up in the post itself although the link was there to photobucket...

you can PM me, or if there is a place in this forum where it has a HOW TO DO info post, link that so I can study???

Boy working off that old Remi patent sure brought back memories of 7th grade drafting!!!!

err... that was early sixties... in fact.. IIRC. 1962, as I remember Kennedy being Assassinated...

but I do love straight lines transitioning into curves, and curves into curves!!!

Currently i have the entire hammer drawn out, including how the original draftsman developed the drawing.... that is on one layer in itself....

the hammer is one layer, dimensions another, etc.

HTH,

Phil

Posted: Jun. 23 2007, 22:52 ET


Phil,
Seems the forum software won't link to a .png file and display it. I saved it with a screen capture program and made a .jpg. Let's see what happens.

ok, that worked. I uploaded the file instead of linking... hmmm... ?


Posted: Jun. 23 2007, 23:42 ET


Quote (Swede @ June 23 2007,08:57)
Do you guys want to replicate one of these patents, or attempt a design that is original, but draws on these actions for ideas and simplicity? †I'm leaning towards the latter.

I wouldn't just lean towards the latter... I insist on it. †

I posted about the Stevens because of the uniqueness of construction techniques for the style. †Truth be told, the model 11"Junior" was a piece of crap but being able to incorporate either something that could be beaten out of sheet metal or sawed out of existing thin walled tubing would really be a help for the type of design this is going for.

Posted: Jun. 26 2007, 10:06 ET


I haven't made a lot of progress yet with my own design - too much other stuff going on - but I'm not going to let this one drop.  Great to see so much interest!  I think with the creative minds here, we'll come up with something interesting.

Posted: Jun. 26 2007, 20:43 ET


ok, let's pin down a few ideas.

1. barrel liner and tubing for the basic barrel, use a real barrel if you have it.
2. Laminated receiver? (to eliminate milling)
3. Simple hammer/trigger or striker/trigger with coil springs.
4. design lends itself to pistol or rifle.

comments, drawings, plans? :D

Posted: Jun. 26 2007, 22:31 ET


Why only coil springs? You can make flat springs from hacksaw blades.

Posted: Jun. 27 2007, 08:35 ET


I was thinking coil springs because they're common and easy to work with, but there's absolutely nothing wrong with leaf springs, especially for say a trigger or sear return spring. †For small and fine leaf springs, you can cannibalize a feeler guage set. †Since they come in different thicknesses, you can test and find which thickness of feeler works best.

A leaf spring as a mainspring, though, is a bit tougher. That's why I picture a mainspring (for a hammer) like an M1 Carbine... spring on a stick, pop it in or out easily.

NevadaBlue, I think your list sums up the basics perfectly.  I hadn't heard of the term laminated reciever before, but the description is apt.  It's gonna be button head cap screws for me to give it that "rivet" look.  You could go countersunk if you want a slimmer profile.

Posted: Jun. 27 2007, 08:50 ET


Quote (Swede @ June 27 2007,08:35)
but there's absolutely nothing wrong with leaf springs, especially for say a trigger or sear return spring. †For small and fine leaf springs, you can cannibalize a feeler guage set. †Since they come in different thicknesses, you can test and find which thickness of feeler works best.

Well there I just learned my new trick for the day..Never would I have thought to use a feeler guage for springstock but its a damned fine idea. :anim_beer:

Posted: Jun. 27 2007, 14:28 ET


Quote (nevadablue @ June 26 2007,17:43)

1. barrel liner and tubing for the basic barrel, use a real barrel if you have it.
2. Laminated receiver? (to eliminate milling)
3. Simple hammer/trigger or striker/trigger with coil springs.
4. design lends itself to pistol or rifle.


All these concepts are already available and built by many here.
Jaco
DeHaas Chickopee
.45/410 flaregun derringers
Yooper Assault Rifle

Not trying to be a jerk but skip the rules and submit original  ideas. Anything goes, let's see some sketches.

Posted: Jun. 27 2007, 14:46 ET


I know it has been done by Alphawolf and has led to a couple others but the reciever in halves has not been fully explored here.  Those really do require a mill though... :(  ... good excuse to go buy one  :)

Not trying to stroke myself here but I wonder why this one that I built hasn't sparked any more interest.  If done as a 22LR, a bunch of shortcuts could be done and some of the parts that I cannabalized could be homebuilt.  Stock tube for receiver, pressed and pinned barrel, bolt from tubing with handle screwed on, hammer and trigger homebuilt.  The couple slots needed could be chain drilled and cleaned up with a file.

There are a couple of side-swing designs that look pretty simple ???

Posted: Jun. 27 2007, 15:58 ET


wasn't the bronco .22 supposed to be the easiest .22lr to manufacture?  i know it was made with castings, but sand casting aluminum is pretty easy to learn and it's not very expensive to set up a small foundry.  i haven't looked at the design of it too well, though.  someone may be able to duplicate the design with standard dimensional stock.


also, i believe the quackenbush safety rifle was designed to be built with minimal lathe work.  (i could be wrong on that, i haven't seen one in years, and im working from fuzzy memories.)


i had a thread here a really long time ago about a straight pull bolt action in .22lr.  i haven't had time to build a model to clarify my design, but it could probably be made with minor farmed out lathe work.  (basically pay a machinist to bore a hole through the center of a piece of square stock, and maybe cut a slot in the side if you aren't comfortable with a dremel.)


i worked on some drawings once...  like a single shot shotgun, but the receiver was going to be laminated from two pieces of .25" plate with a .5" inch plate sandwiched in between.  i scrapped the project because i wasn't comfortable having that steel sandwich held together with machine screws.

i'm interested to see where this thread goes.


Posted: Jun. 27 2007, 16:24 ET


I think this discussion is fine; maybe it will spark someone's interest or help somebody get past a sticking point that had them held up. Maybe someone will be prevented from making a dangerous mistake, too.

But basically, I think or expect that any worthwhile designs are going to come from the efforts of individual members working along their own lines. There's probably not going to be one "ultimate" design for home building. Somebody will favor bolt actions, somebody else sandwich-constructed tipping blocks or rolling blocks or break-opens, somebody else blowbacks. Everybody has different tools available and different skills.

I know in between projects I always have a zillion half-formed possibilities floating around in my head... the hard part is settling on one that appears doable and making the effort to solve the remaining problems.

Ideally we should have a range of proven projects so members can select one that best suits their own tastes and abilities. We're all ready to help or advise; posting your paper sketches or CAD designs is great; but I challenge you guys individually to get moving towards something made out of metal.

Posted: Jun. 27 2007, 20:12 ET


and on that note

i am more than willing to exchange work

if someone would legally machine me some parts id be happy to prototype draft any design they wanted, i work fast and it allows to spot design flaws and part interferance right away
no reworking required.

and i say use sthornes design set the grip at a more extream angle and change the stock to a screw on fit at the base of the handle

just from the design standpoint his folding ss rifle has more potential for ease of manufacture that almost anything else ive seen, especially if you go with a sandwich design at the pivot. you could get away with just a few welds to get your shape.

Posted: Jun. 27 2007, 21:42 ET


I think you should ALL move to the north central Nevada desert and we can work this out. :D

Cobbler, yes, neat design, but the AR bolt throws me off. I would like a bolt action with just the bolt handle as the locking lug. That is fine for 22. Your design also includes a swinging hammer. It would be much more simple to have an inline striker.

What say we keep this up? We can work on tossing ideas around and then maybe work up a design with the flexibility we need. This is fun.

Posted: Jun. 27 2007, 23:55 ET


Well I've spent considerable time on this and I haven't come up with anything really simple yet. I always seem to need a tool thats not on the list. That falling block rifle with the round block sparked considerable intrest. I think that would be cool as a pistol with a trigger guard like a volcanic to work the block. Brass frame, walnut grips ,blue barrel and block, sort of mid 1800s look. Could be mostly drilled and reamed but still a lot of hand work making parts. The stevens rolling block is interesting also set up the same way.
 The jaco designs are really about the most simple designes out there other than drilling for the liner and you can easily make them any shape you want.
The stevens model 15 is doable and about the simplest bolt action going . I have a bolt for one on my desk I keep looking at trying to figure the machining parts into hand work . I think it could be done.
 I think if our tool list was anything available from home depot or lowes this would be a lot easier

Posted: Jun. 28 2007, 04:51 ET


Here's some interesting bolt actions:

Patent #632094

Patent #632090

The second one combines the sear, trigger, extractor, and bolt stop into a single part. Probably need machining on the bolts or receivers, though.

Posted: Jun. 28 2007, 05:22 ET


Look at Mason patents 511631, 511632, and 511633 for some falling blocks that don't require receivers. Browning designed an even simpler one, which probably precipitated these spin-off designs from Winchester, but I can't locate the Browning patent.

I seem to be having trouble posting links a lot recently. :(

Posted: Jun. 28 2007, 06:22 ET


fuzzbean has a very good point.  maybe we should separate this into seperate threads...   a bolt action project, a rolling block project, a tip up project, etc.

once everyone starts drawing their ideas, throwing out suggestions, and commenting on a dozen different designs all on one thread we'll be digging through sixteen pages every day to find the one or two projects we want to follow.

-

on a technical note, i have an old orphan .22 bolt that i'm planning to build an action for.  i was having a hard time figuring out how to lay out and cut the slot for the bolt on a round receiver tube until i realized the tube doesn't have to be round.  a piece of square stock with a hole bored through the middle makes laying out those slots and clamping the workpiece in a vise a lot simpler.  (in theory.)

Posted: Jun. 28 2007, 06:32 ET


Quote (nabisko @ June 28 2007,06:22)
i was having a hard time figuring out how to lay out and cut the slot for the bolt on a round receiver tube until i realized the tube doesn't have to be round. †a piece of square stock with a hole bored through the middle makes laying out those slots and clamping the workpiece in a vise a lot simpler.

I'll never understand why any home builder (as opposed to a mass-production commercial maker) would want to build a bolt action with a round receiver. Trigger attachment, integral scope mounts, bedding... everything works out better with a rectangular receiver, if you are going to do machining anyway.

I started out designing my .22 pistol project with a 7/8" OD round tube just for economy, but quickly dropped the idea. I'm real glad I did.

Posted: Jun. 28 2007, 08:58 ET


Fellas, I never meant for this to become a hard and fast list of must-do's and must-not-do's, or have some tool list that if you use something else, "it won't be acceptable."  The idea is to do just what we are doing, toss ideas around and just free-associate on simplicity.  Everyone's notions are different, and the more designs, the merrier.  I think the only overriding goal is simplicity and safe minimalism.

I know there are some awesome designs already out there.  Truly there's nothing new under the sun when it comes to SS .22's.  I simply think we need MORE of them!  Building a JACO is great.  I remember ordering those plans and knocking one off when I was a kid.  The guy who designed and published those is a hero in my book.  But there is nothing so satisfying as an original design, IMO.  So let's have some fun!

Posted: Jun. 28 2007, 09:50 ET


I think the Browning patent is 511677.

Posted: Jun. 28 2007, 13:47 ET


Quote (nowhereman @ June 28 2007,09:50)
I think the Browning patent is 511677.

Yes, that's the one. It was described and listed in that book about Browning, but I don't have the book here.

I'm surprized nobody here has ever tried to make one of those.

Some of the patents Browning sold to Winchester were just designed as competition killers, but I sometimes wonder if there weren't some really good ones that Winchester just didn't have openings for in their line. Be interesting if one of them (not this crazy one) could be modernized and finally put into commercial production today.

Posted: Jun. 28 2007, 22:34 ET


[quote=BakaBomb,June 27 2007,23:12][/quote]
Quote
and on that note

i am more than willing to exchange work


MAY I suggest you study what "legally" constitutes this hobby?

You may purchase up to an 80 percent machined piece of metal, which YOU then machine further, to create a firearm of X,Y, or Z concepts...

You may even travel to some friends machine shop, and the USE their equipment....

Quote

if someone would legally machine me some parts id be happy to prototype draft any design they wanted, i work fast and it allows to spot design flaws and part interferance right away
no reworking required.


BUT legally, none of us, or any other person can make those things for you!!!

You may discuss all the design factors, changes, etc that you want.... but those LAWS above must be conformed to!!!

(yes laws, see BATFE RULES on this hobby of ours)

asking us to exchange work DOES NOT fit within the LAWS as such....

I for one would hope you refrain from such requests.....

Thanks,

Phil

Posted: Jun. 28 2007, 22:38 ET


I have been on the road the first half of this week....

the thread has sure taken off....

I think keeping it as one thread & not separating out bolt actions breech loaders, rolling or falling blocks into their own post threads is best.

Tomorrow is payday.

I am buying a barrel reliner, or TWO.

First gun build, Here I come!!!!!!

:anim_bounce:  :anim_bounce:  :anim_bounce:  :anim_bounce:

Posted: Jun. 28 2007, 22:39 ET


a round bolt will work in a square tube just fine. Then the receiver is easy to attach to something else and the bolt is easy to make. For a 22, a nice slip fit round bolt in a square tube would actually work pretty good, I think.

Posted: Jun. 29 2007, 00:34 ET


On the subject of making gun parts for others (I'm not volunteering to do it -- I got more than enough of my own ideas) if I can legally make a M1911A1 hammer or Winchester M70 trigger for somebody else, surely I can legally make any part of some hypothetical design too, short of the receiver.

Anybody know the exact circumstances of that case where the guy got thrown in the slammer for being a little bit too helpful in the making of .50 BMG rifles? I can't remember the name even, but it must have involved receivers I would think.

Posted: Jun. 29 2007, 02:58 ET


That was Bob Stewart, of Maadi-Griffin fame.

According to one news source, the BATFE was able to dremel the unfinished reciever into firing condition in 35 minutes, which I guess is enough to make it a firearm.

Posted: Jul. 6 2007, 22:54 ET


I hope you all haven't given up on this. I have looked through a bunch of bolt action designs for one that is pretty simple, few parts and could be made from solid stock or tubes and bushings. It would require  a torch for some high temp silver soldering . I'm trying to figure ways for non lathe people to build also as I go along.
The only moving parts besides the bolt  is the is the bar that slides under the bolt. The bar is the extractor , ejector and bolt stop and the striker. There are provisions for a safety but could be built without it.
There are really no critical dimensions except for the top of the sliding bar but I think that can be figured out from just watching the bolt move.
I've started cutting one out and will have pics up in a day or so.
This is the only pic I can find although I'm sure GPC will have a breakdown

Posted: Jul. 6 2007, 23:41 ET


firing pin? trigger?

so, tubing for the receiver. a barrel liner set into tubing and a piece of telescoping size tubing inside the receiver to sleeve the receiver to barrel tube size. Or, find suitable sizes so the liner can go into one tube and that tube into the receiver. A cross pin to hold it in place or a thumb screw takedown.

the bolt telescopes inside the receiver, no machining. Gotta go look for sizes...

Here are some sizes of tubing available from online metals... just examples.

0.5" OD x 0.065" WALL x 0.37" ID 4130 TUBE

0.75" OD x 0.095" WALL x 0.56" ID 4130 TUBE

0.75" OD x 0.12" WALL x 0.51" ID 4130 TUBE

1" OD x 0.25" WALL x 0.5" ID 4130 TUBE

1" OD x 0.12" WALL x 0.76" ID 4130 TUBE

0.75" OD x 0.1875" WALL x 0.375" ID 4130 TUBE


It looks like the 1" stuff could be the receiver, the .75 ID could be the barrel. Does anyone know how much loctite or solder can fill. Can it make up the difference between the .3125 liner and the .375 bore of the tube?
Seems that solder wouldn't be a problem.

1" OD x 0.12" WALL x 0.76" ID 4130 TUBE

0.75" OD x 0.1875" WALL x 0.375" ID 4130 TUBE

now we need a bolt, this should work.

0.75" ALLOY STEEL 4130 NORMALIZED COLD FINISH ROUND


Posted: Jul. 7 2007, 00:10 ET


Quote (nevadablue @ July 06 2007,23:41)
firing pin? trigger?

The fireing pin is fixed to the end of the striker and well I guess the trigger is a moving part . The original is actually pined through the stock. I think the built one should have the trigger mounted in a bracket soldered to the receiver section(mine does). The flat spring could be replaced with a coil spring and plunger  in a brass or steel housing in a U shape under the sliding bar.The bar is about 3/16 thick and needs to be some pretty good stuff for wear resistance I'll try to think of something easy to find to make that out of.

Posted: Jul. 7 2007, 00:13 ET


Quote (nevadablue @ July 06 2007,23:41)
It looks like the 1" stuff could be the receiver, the .75 ID could be the barrel. Does anyone know how much loctite or solder can fill. Can it make up the difference between the .3125 liner and the .375 bore of the tube?
Seems that solder wouldn't be a problem.

Liners are also available in 3/8 od

Posted: Jul. 7 2007, 01:08 ET


Quote (scasa @ July 07 2007,01:54)
I hope you all haven't given up on this. I have looked through a bunch of bolt action designs for one that is pretty simple, few parts and could be made from solid stock or tubes and bushings. It would require  a torch for some high temp silver soldering . I'm trying to figure ways for non lathe people to build also as I go along.
The only moving parts besides the bolt  is the is the bar that slides under the bolt. The bar is the extractor , ejector and bolt stop and the striker. There are provisions for a safety but could be built without it.
There are really no critical dimensions except for the top of the sliding bar but I think that can be figured out from just watching the bolt move.
I've started cutting one out and will have pics up in a day or so.
This is the only pic I can find although I'm sure GPC will have a breakdown

scasa, I haven't given up on it...

to be honest, I thought maybe I had "chilled" the thread because of my comment to BakaBomb about BATFE...

I should leave those type of comments to moderators...

Anyway one of the patents above was the Remington Number 6 Rolling Block...

I copied it into DeltaCad and cleaned it up.  I then saved it in "DWG format" and then compressed it to email to a poster here.

OK, THAT was plain weird.

What??? Oh, my keyboard just Stopped entering text!

Somehow I hit the filter keys button... I don't even know where that is, but finally M$ucks told me so...

Anyway....  the strange thing about changing out of "native format" in DeltaCad is it adds extra "default layers" plus a layer 0 (zero) and thats what sometimes will be on, when you open up the DWG! just open up your layers, views or whatever your CAD program calls them.

There were no thickness drawings, as well as dimensional aspects... so the quoted dimensions are "best guesses", determined by how I matched the original lines, curves, holes Etc.

Also, Delta Cad did not export the original "copy & paste" that I worked off of.

??? I  did mention this is my first full on attempt to do this ???

let me know.... Good & Bad what you think of the results!

Phil

edited due to keyboard mishaps...

Posted: Jul. 7 2007, 03:42 ET


Quote (whirlingdervish @ July 07 2007,01:08)
...to be honest, I thought maybe I had "chilled" the thread because of my comment to BakaBomb about BATFE...

I should leave those type of comments to moderators...

There's nothing wrong with bringing up concerns such as that within the forum. †Just remember that some firearms contain over 100 parts, and of all those parts, only one is serial numbered as the frame/receiver. †Any part that does not qualify as the frame/receiver can be manufactured and transferred domestically with no restrictions. †And even an incomplete frame/receiver can be transferred without restriction, so long as it is considered "not readily convertible" to a functioning frame/receiver.

As long as no completed frames/receivers are illegally transferred, there is absolutely nothing wrong with exchanging design work for machined parts.

Of course, one might argue that any design complicated enough to require bartering for the services of a machinist doesn't really qualify as "The Ultimate in Simple Barreled Actions".

Posted: Jul. 7 2007, 08:51 ET


I haven't given up.  I unfortunately haven't even started modeling yet, but the design is floating around up there in my noggin.  Somewhere.  I spend too much time reading threads on this site, and not enough time gunsmithing.  In the meantime, the examples guys are posting are great food for thought.

Posted: Jul. 7 2007, 11:57 ET


Quote (Swede @ July 07 2007,08:51)
I spend too much time reading threads on this site, and not enough time gunsmithing.

Sometimes I think that too, but if not for this web sight I would have given up long ago and taken up knitting or something.

So is this design leaning more toward a bolt action than a tip-up barrel design?

Posted: Jul. 7 2007, 12:56 ET


Not necessarily I've just been trying to figure something  out that was simple that I could do to maybe help some others get started on a project or get some ideas or work a rounds. I'm still in recovery mode and not working so It's good for me to see if I can build a gun left handed

Posted: Jul. 7 2007, 13:37 ET


Quote (whirlingdervish @ July 07 2007,01:08)
I copied it into DeltaCad and cleaned it up. †I then saved it in "DWG format" and then compressed it to email to a poster here.

My revision 14 Autocad says those DWGs were made on an incompatable version....any suggestion on how I might open them?

Posted: Jul. 7 2007, 15:29 ET


It opens in AutoCad 20 but it just shows it as a blank page.???

Posted: Jul. 7 2007, 17:53 ET


ALPHAWOLF45 the program I use states that it is using .dwg compatible with 2003, 04, 05 through 2006!

drjerry... did you try checking the "VIEWS" icon in your program???

As I said above, after I emailed it to myself (zipped file)

and UN-compressed it... the .DWG files all had New extra layers:

In the original file the copy & paste is on "default".

I first develop another layer, to draw on... just the basic outlines.

Later on another layer is done to provide radius, then another for Horizontal Dim, one more for Vertical Dim.

Later I copied each part to a separate drawing following the same ideas above.

... One more thought about the conversion process: it provides Two different methods, which honestly I do not understand the difference...

1.Maintains Line Weight...

2. is the one that makes no sense.... errr I could save it in that, as a trial, and post here....

I'll do that soon.

Hope that helps, as I don't have much success trying to use other CAD programs, BTDT didn't ever have good drawing...

Posted: Jul. 7 2007, 18:34 ET


OK, so I took each of my original files (native format) turned on all the layers so there ~should~ be something showing...

I then saved as .dwg IN THE "OTHER CHOICE"

Posted: Jul. 7 2007, 18:45 ET


OK, so I took each of my original files (native format) turned on all the layers so there ~should~ be something showing...

I then saved as .dwg IN THE "OTHER CHOICE" that states it will give "entities" "Line, Circle, Ellipses, etc." entities support.

~Whatever~ that means....

BTW, I can also save as a DXF & a DXB file type... and there are also RELEASE variations from "9" through "14" I suppose that information is about AutoCad releases.

If this file upload works, I will save future uploads in like manner.


Phil

Posted: Jul. 7 2007, 18:46 ET


The upload did not go through... here is another try...

Phil

Posted: Jul. 7 2007, 22:20 ET


any chance of making jpg files for those of us who are dwg challenged? :)

Posted: Jul. 7 2007, 23:15 ET


Quote (nevadablue @ July 08 2007,01:20)
any chance of making jpg files for those of us who are dwg challenged? :)

nevadablue, just for you...

No problem!!!

by end of evening, I'll figure it out...

Phil

Posted: Jul. 8 2007, 03:13 ET


NB, here is a zip full of JPEG's.

ONE thing I failed to comment upon is that some random curves ( eg. Top of Hammer, etc. ) are really combinations of Straight Lines & radius curves.

My method of "marking that" is to draw parallel lines on both sides of the actual STRAIGHT line.

This should become obvious as you look at the conversions from PDF to CAD.

Also, while in CAD it becomes apparent that what looks like  a dust mark or blot at normal size is actually a Plot Mark, left from the original drafting.

I sometimes left those in, as MY Location (say for a radius point) was "off" by a couple thousandths.

Mind you, this is just my first working(s) from PDF's to CAD!

I saw some more down loads (I do the first down load as a test)  :bangin:

So let me know how I'm doing or if I can improve, etc!

:bangin:  :bangin:

:thumbs:

Posted: Jul. 8 2007, 09:10 ET


Thanks!I got those to open just fine and they look good .

Posted: Jul. 8 2007, 15:31 ET


Quote
So is this design leaning more toward a bolt action than a tip-up barrel design?


i'm working on a tip up design that should be safe.  i designed it to be made with a few tools and readily available materials.

i want to wait until i have pictures of my progress, but drawings may have to suffice until i can find the right bits of metal.  (i had the exact piece i need until my mother gave it away to a guy collecting scrap metal  :(  )

i'll make some progress on the drawings at work tonight and probably finish tomorrow morning.

if you are really patient you could make this thing with nothing but a hacksaw, files, a drill, and a tap.  (unless the design changes.)

Posted: Jul. 8 2007, 18:48 ET


wd, thanks, now I can see the light :)

nabisco, what kind of metal chunk do you need?

Posted: Jul. 8 2007, 19:39 ET


Quote (nevadablue @ July 08 2007,21:48)
wd, thanks, now I can see the light :)

nabisco, what kind of metal chunk do you need?

NB,

Your Welcome...


Hope they help....

If you are ever in need of ~really~ simple to use CAD, try

http://www.deltacad.com/  $39.95, free trial first, that seems to run for ever....   :anim_bounce:

or PM me, & I'll do some chicken scratches & xsfr to jpg.

Posted: Jul. 9 2007, 14:37 ET


this is incomplete, but it should give you ideas...





#1 - locate a piece of angle iron about .75 inch thick and cut off a slice about 1.25 inch wide

#2 - trim the legs off.  i don't have dimensions for you yet and the drawings are not to any kind of scale

#3 - drill a hole through the bottom leg.  this hole has to be drilled square to avoid binding when the barrel is tipped.

#4 - a slot needs to be cut to accommodate the barrel block

#5 - the ends of the bottom leg need to have a radius so the barrel block can tip.

#6 - finished.


and now for the barrel block:



#7 - get a piece of square stock and saw, grind, or file two chunks off of the bottom to make a "tee" shape

#8 - drill a hole through it for the barrel.  the barrel will be pinned in

#9 - side view showing where to cut for clearance and where to drill for the pivot

#10 - finished.


i'm not showing the latching system or the hammer & trigger yet.  it's pretty difficult to show in a drawing.

i believe this is a safe design, but it is experimental and untested.  i wouldn't build one in anything bigger than .22 just yet.

opinions?

Posted: Jul. 9 2007, 21:05 ET


Looks good, I don't think I've ever seen 3/4" thick angle iron however... wouldn't it be easier to cut another chunk of the same stuff as the barrel block? I have some 1" plate I can send if that will work for what you are wanting to do.

Posted: Jul. 10 2007, 13:37 ET


thanks for the offer, but i have a lot of other work to do before i get started on this.  

finding the materials shouldn't be too hard.  i'm going to stop at a welding place that does a lot of farm and industrial jobs.  i have a friend that works there who will let me dig the scrap pile and cut a good price on whatever i find.

3/4 inch angle and i-beam are pretty common in my area.  i had probably a half ton of heavy steel behind the garage before it got hauled away.  i also lost an old lawn tractor and a big air tank that were going to be turned into a portable compressor :(

half inch angle might even work, i was just erring on the side of safety and allowing extra thickness for a larger hinge pin.

i could cut everything out from 1.25" square stock, but i was designing this for the least amount of cutting and it would be difficult making the cuts at exactly 90 degrees.

it's even easier if you just silver solder a lug under the barrel, but a lot of people (including me) don't have the experience to get a good solder joint in such a critical location.  also, everyone seemed set on using a pinned on barrel.

it's an old idea that's been in the back of my mind for a long time.  i was going to wait to post it until i had construction started, but it seemed to fit in this thread.

i tried again to draw the extensions that hold the hammer and trigger, but it's just not something i can draw in a way that makes sense.  it's just some pieces of thinner angle drilled and attached to some holes tapped in the back and bottom of the receiver...

it may be months before i get around to this, but if anyone seriously wants to build one of these i could keep trying to draw it or mock something up.

Posted: Aug. 12 2007, 23:12 ET


What about using 1/4" or 1/8" pipe for the outer barrel shroud? It wouldn't have to be drilled, just honed inside. A long wooden dowel with a longitudinal slot cut in one end(to hold some emery cloth), can be chucked into a drill motor and will true up/smooth up the inside quite nicely.
Some small square tubing for the barrel shroud sounds promising. Maybe some 1" ID or OD square tubing for the receiver. Call it a "squarevival rifle."
What about plastic casting resin, instead of epoxy, to fill in the airspace between liner and shroud? Or even, pantyhose soaked in the casting resin. Epoxy is just so expensive in larger quantities. Granted, it would only be a small aount used on a project like this one. Hell, tightly wrap the sleeeve with pantyhose, and then saturate the hose with superglue. Then if you have a lathe, you could turn or lathe file it down even. Superglue is very affordable. you can get 4 and 6 packs of it from Wally World for a couple of bucks.
Or maybe polyester fiberglass resin. Or is that the same as the plastic casting resin, as sold by Micro Mark?
I know! Fill the space between liner and shroud with silicone casting rubber. Then it would dampen barrel vibration.
:D

Posted: Aug. 14 2007, 21:20 ET


pantyhose soaked in resin... :D

Posted: Aug. 15 2007, 00:08 ET


Quote (Jaymo @ Aug. 12 2007,22:12)
Or even, pantyhose soaked in the casting resin.

Sounds like a wild night....:lolup:

Even if the pantyhose idea has merit, I think the 44cannon thing ruined it forever. :D

Posted: Aug. 15 2007, 03:09 ET


I received my barrel liners from Numerich... then ordered from online metals to suit the OD's for the 2 types of liners I bought.

I bought the 10 pack of 9 7/8 inch barrels that have a .375 O.D., for that I purchased a 12" length of T-304 Stainless.

I will cut that in half for two six inch Receivers.

Outside Diameter is spot on .500", Inside Diameter will need a minor reaming to fit, I will only be reaming about an 1 1/2 inches, as the reaming only involves the chambering area, wall thickness is spot on at .065".

Between the original liners wall thickness (.075") and the .065" I think I'll have a safe breech ....

I won't discuss the rest of the pistol yet...  :cool:

The "other liner" is a 26 inch length, that is .315 nominal O.D.... it seems fairly floppy in my estimation, but then

1. I have never held one before....

2. they are meant to be inserted into a hole that is DRILLED Straight!!!!

for that I purchased a piece of ROUND TUBING T-304 (SEAMLESS), 0.375" OD x 0.028" WALL SEAMLESS STAINLESS TUBE T-304  (pasted from Online's website...)

the .375 is spot on... I have not decided if I TRUST the inherent straitness of the 26" 22LR liner, I need a better straight edge than I have to test it...

If it proves not to be straight enough, I will be using cut off's from that and  the .375 OD wall, which by the way slips over the Barrel Liner really nice...

Either way of using those pieces in the future will involve the LockTight Products mentioned here... there is to much slop in the fit between the Stainless and the Liner for a good solder job.... And I don't do any other kind!!!

(I have mentioned in the past that I have approx  30 years experience in Silver Soldering... yes???)

Them solder joints have to FIT nice to be REAL.  :thumbs:

hope that helps....

BTW, in my opinion, Online Metals is rather slow in getting around to processing orders... I had to email them, and then got the ball rolling but that was a whole week later than I expected!!!

Phil

Posted: Aug. 15 2007, 03:15 ET


I saw the post about Super Glue, epoxies etc.....

I purchase all my super glue at WoodCrafters, or similar websites.

I only purchase 2 ounce bottles... once you figure out the cost per ounce in those little itty bitty tiny wieny tubes... you will understand frugality of 2 ounce bottles for under 10$$$$

(Silicone to dampen vibrations in weapons?? ?? ??)  
:anim_bounce:  :anim_bounce:  :anim_bounce:  :anim_bounce:

Phil

Posted: Aug. 15 2007, 04:26 ET


One idea I had for a simple gun breech was to use two pivot or takedown pins from an AR-15, plus the detents and detent springs. The gun would be a break-open with one pin directly below the breech and one directly above it. Sort of a crude Greener cross-bolt that you'd just pop with your thumb. This would be a bit improvised in nature, but strong enough for any rimfire and probably the shotgun gauges too.

Posted: Aug. 16 2007, 00:29 ET


Quote (Fuzzbean @ Aug. 15 2007,07:26)

FuzzBean,

Quote
The gun would be a break-open with one pin directly below the breech and one directly above it.


Thanks for that post!!!

I changed my mind and finally got a good start on the drawing...

Enough that I did cut my first piece of T-304 tonight!

(I never have been called speedy by anyone...)

:D

Posted: Aug. 16 2007, 13:28 ET


I like the idea of Sthones survival rifle, but with a trigger like the M6 survival rifle. Maybe have the 2 pin idea like Fuzzbean suggested, and make the rear sight integral to the top pin mount. Make an oversized copy of the spring and over center lever/catch/cam used to hold open/closed the top of a zippo lighter, and use that to hold the buttplate open/closed for the purpose of storing extra ammo in the butt.

Posted: Sep. 9 2007, 21:18 ET


OK, fall is approaching, time to wake this thread up again. :)

This design seems to have merit. It is very simple. Cocks on opening, few parts.

Posted: Sep. 9 2007, 21:19 ET


Here is the patent for the above picture.

Posted: Sep. 10 2007, 16:07 ET




Some beauties for your think tank.  :lolup:

Posted: Feb. 29 2008, 02:01 ET


Here's a simple looking gun to build. Not real sleek to operate, but simple. I don't know why they wanted the firing pin so long and the barrel so short; looks like legal trouble nowadays.

Posted: Feb. 29 2008, 03:08 ET


how about a Maynard style action :D


Posted: Feb. 29 2008, 10:46 ET


I feel bad about starting this thread with every intention of making an example, but I never got to it... darn it.  At least we have a whole bunch of simple designs now somewhat gathered together in a single thread.  I like that pistol that NevadaBlue posted last fall... missed that one.  i think some sort of tip up (or side-swing) is going to be the way to go for raw simplicity.

Posted: Mar. 7 2008, 19:03 ET


wrong pic sorry  see next..

Posted: Mar. 7 2008, 22:44 ET


heres a very simple mechanism for a rifle or pistola

It is locked in place by a slide pin once forwarded and loaded  cocking is  just pulling back the chager until the trigger/sear engages.  

pressure of the trigger releases the firing spring

trigger is on the side for ease of use.  the firing pin is a gear select lever from a old printing press ( hydlberg letterpress press) and is as found and the fixed "bolt" has 4 drill holes only  ..  the trigger sear can be filed to shape  the rest of the gun is up to you..

the block is whatever you wish  without being silly


Posted: Mar. 8 2008, 21:37 ET


Do you still want that post removed? you can cut and past the narrative to the one below and then delete the post above.

Posted: Mar. 8 2008, 23:51 ET


ok  did the post  cut and paste thingy. ( thanks for the help  so obvious but..)  ok next step  deleting post  How ??  looked at FAQ's   am i missing something /??

Posted: Mar. 9 2008, 04:47 ET


wow , this is a thread that I had missed originally. This project has a lot of promise. Keep the ideas rolling in and it might be considered by some other low pressure calibers such as .38spls?

Posted: Mar. 9 2008, 08:57 ET


anyone have a link to .38spls pressure chart ? †ammoguide did not have one listed..

Posted: Mar. 9 2008, 15:45 ET


max presure for the .38 special is 17,000 psi. I dont have a chart just the  max presure listings.

Posted: Mar. 9 2008, 16:32 ET


This is one thread I really hoped would spawn some new ideas. Fortunatly it started when I was recovering from some minor surgery so I had a lot of time to spend thinking about it . I've determined a couple of things first no matter how simple a design it still takes a pretty well equipped shop to make something that will shoot. and second you just can't build something in a day or two. I think the Jaco designs have a good start on simplicity but looks wise I think they could use some improvement. I've thought about building one a couple of times but making it look like a medium sized semi auto pistol instead of the western style. The barrel drilling part for the home shop guy with just a drill press is probably the most intimadating part to make. Ideally If we had a piece of square stock with the lug machined on it and the hole drilled for the liner available in the trading post for a reasonable price I think we would see a lot more builds. The hack sawing out of side plates and other small parts isn't that hard to do. Maybe somebody with a real shop would give it a try and see if they would sell. I'd like to see somebody build a simple bolt action but I dont see that happening without a pretty well equipped shop. I think the sandwich type build is where it's at with a shape of the grip frame in a more modern style  Some don't like the screws holding it all together, most of us have a buddy with a welder who could fix that though .
Anyway thats my thoughts on it for today. Anybody want to try a few barrel blanks in the trading post?

Posted: Mar. 9 2008, 20:44 ET


if it was not rifled yet  i'd be in that..  hard to get small bore stuff here in a reasonable ammount of time and money  would buy 3-4 and call em castings..   if they where suitable for me ( limited to .22s really)

cheers

Posted: Mar. 9 2008, 20:50 ET


15.88mm x 3.25mm SMT/SHT leaves a bore size of † 9.38mm †( U guage or .3680) †you need to ream it .0200 (approx,) before rifleing for .38. ( W guage or.3860)

Stainless pressure tube in this size has a 60,000 PSI rating.. †suitable enough for your .38spls ( .38 spec. we call em)

the Luty design was built by a friend in Russia useing this tube and he is still using it for his little farm. and he aint shy to use it either so its had plenty of rounds through it.

cheers

HTH


Posted: Mar. 9 2008, 21:11 ET


If my reamer chart is off i apologuise  i use the guide from " The British book of gunsmithing and workshop weaponry"  it has the UK and US guages  and hopefully i'm quoting the right guage size  if not slap me about and tell me to read it straight.
I thought .38 was V guage size..  but the book says W..  ..

Posted: Apr. 5 2008, 08:27 ET


I can knock up a sketch for a break open,but does require a mill and lathe,uses a space frame welded from 1/4" square for the lower assembly,trigger,grip etc.
Rather not post a pic
Kevin

Posted: Apr. 5 2008, 11:07 ET


Good god , they must have some bad laws down under. People do not even wish to post pictures of their work. I just hope that we never get that bad here.

Posted: Apr. 5 2008, 11:31 ET


Doesnt want to post picture may mean his welds embarrass him too much?...I know that feeling. :D

Posted: Feb. 15 2009, 13:11 ET


i just saw some pictures that made me think of this thread.  it is described as 'hand-made suppressed .22 pistol, 1930s'





there are a few other pics at olegvolk.net, as well as pro-gun images and posters.

this particular gun was on this page, about halfway down.

i don't have the time or inclination to build anything right now, but if anyone is still interested this doesn't look too difficult...  and it seems to meet all the required criteria for this thread.

Posted: Feb. 15 2009, 14:01 ET


Very interesting, thanks for the links.

Posted: Feb. 15 2009, 19:13 ET


Something I thought up while mowing the lawn one day.

Slide a round in, pull the trigger, brass(theoretically) jams gun open so recocking doesn't take much, shake out empty and repeat. Im thinking short in handgun form, LR in rifle, (more barrel=more mass). Rifle variant would be built on the same action, just a longer barrel( a liner beefed up from the chamber to the end of the action) with a shroud and a stock.

Posted: Feb. 15 2009, 19:23 ET


I think thats about the most simple idea I've seen. Pretty clever.

Posted: Feb. 15 2009, 19:43 ET


Kenny: Am I right in thinking that your design has a moving barrel that is pushed backwards onto the firing pin which is fixed in place?

I don't think that would open when the round fires. In the open bolt pistols (I'm specifically thinking about fuzzbean's older one here but I think most/all will follow a similar design) the bolt moves relative to the stock/grip. So when the stock is held still and the brass pushes back on the bolt, it slides.

In your design the brass will push back against the firing pin, but it can't move. I don't see there being a great deal of force pushing the barrel forward.

Not a show stopper, but I can't see it jamming open.

Posted: Feb. 15 2009, 20:02 ET


Quote (mike_au @ Feb. 15 2009,19:43)
Kenny: Am I right in thinking that your design has a moving barrel that is pushed backwards onto the firing pin which is fixed in place?

I don't think that would open when the round fires. In the open bolt pistols (I'm specifically thinking about fuzzbean's older one here but I think most/all will follow a similar design) the bolt moves relative to the stock/grip. So when the stock is held still and the brass pushes back on the bolt, it slides.

In your design the brass will push back against the firing pin, but it can't move. I don't see there being a great deal of force pushing the barrel forward.

Not a show stopper, but I can't see it jamming open.

You are right. So that's why those "slamfire" shotguns dont rip your arm off. I have been thinking about a safety, the firing "nub" could be a course thread screw with a big knurled head, turn it out a turn and the nub backs into the breech block, effectively removing the firing pin.

I actually first saw this concept in a dream(is that healthy?), I refined it on the mower.

Posted: Feb. 15 2009, 20:20 ET


Simplicity at its best, always the best way to go.  The operation is extremely similar to the Talon SS air rifle, where the barrel slides back to initiate the firing sequence.  
This link shows Trigger/Barrel release drawing.

http://talonairgun.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=132

Posted: Feb. 15 2009, 21:34 ET


A bit more refined, I have added a cocking handle(green, supposed to stick straight out an inch or so) w/ slot that doubles as a second safety/ bolt hold open. The notch holds it a hair away from the sear so spring pressure will help hold it there. The safety screw and screws that hold the front block(more on what that block does later) in are also now visible.

Posted: Feb. 15 2009, 21:59 ET


Quote (nabisko @ Feb. 15 2009,10:11)
i just saw some pictures that made me think of this thread. †it is described as 'hand-made suppressed .22 pistol, 1930s'





there are a few other pics at olegvolk.net, as well as pro-gun images and posters.

this particular gun was on this page, about halfway down.

i don't have the time or inclination to build anything right now, but if anyone is still interested this doesn't look too difficult... †and it seems to meet all the required criteria for this thread.

I've seen that pistol in a book somewhere, I remember reading that it was being used in a slaughterhouse or something, nice and simple plus it looks good.

Posted: Feb. 16 2009, 17:14 ET


Extractor is a bit of spring wire, red dots indicate small screws.

CONSTRUCTION IDEAS

Barrel sleeve is a piece of slip fit hobby tubing with a filled down nut soldered/brazed on. Liner is epoxied in.

Cocking handle is a bolt with a piece of tubing over it (forms a spacer).

Posted: Feb. 16 2009, 20:32 ET


Pretty neat design. The more I think about it, I'm starting to think the barrel might indeed open on firing. The bullet does offer some resistance as it engages the rifling while the case head is pressed tight against the breech. The pressure has to be relieved so the barrel should start to move forward at least until the bullet exits the barrel ......or so it seems...maybe.

One question, maybe I missed it, but how is the cartridge held in the chamber. Does the sear/trigger extend over the cartridge rim?

Posted: Feb. 16 2009, 21:15 ET


Quote (vrwc @ Feb. 16 2009,20:32)
One question, maybe I missed it, but how is the cartridge held in the chamber. Does the sear/trigger extend over the cartridge rim?

Still working on that one, it will probably come to me tomorrow.

Posted: Feb. 16 2009, 21:45 ET


since someone resurected this....

i was thinking of something today, although not a 22lr...

i have a good 16" ar bbl in the shop, i was thinking of getting an ar bolt head, and making a quick and easy single shot bolt action with it.

Posted: Feb. 16 2009, 23:43 ET


Quote (deth502 @ Feb. 16 2009,21:45)
since someone resurected this....

i was thinking of something today, although not a 22lr...

i have a good 16" ar bbl in the shop, i was thinking of getting an ar bolt head, and making a quick and easy single shot bolt action with it.

One did that some time ago
my search fu isn't strong enough to find it
but i think i have saved the pictures
if the thread isnt found a can put them up ,but lets see if someone can get that thread back ,that would save bandwith

Posted: May 20 2011, 15:18 ET


I know this is a really old topic, but I have just become a paid up member/subscriber and like the of a simple build with minimal tools and  store bought parts (out of necessity really...I'm not from US)

So did anyone take the challenge and build something?

Posted: May 21 2011, 02:55 ET


Seems an open bolt design would be the simplest, although the ATFs really don't like them.  But that wouldn't matter outside of the US.  Hard to convert to a machine gun with no magazine but that would be logic.  Wouldn't need more than a couple of moving parts.

Posted: May 23 2011, 22:09 ET


Is silver soldering acceptable in this project?

Posted: Dec. 1 2012, 19:25 ET


Quote (Swede @ June 16 2007,10:19)
I've been toying with the notion that this board needs plans and drawings for what you could call the "Super-Simple Single" or some other such nonsense. †What it is: †The creation of a barreled action for a single-shot .22LR that is as simple as can be humanly engineered. † The action could be useable for either a pistol or rifle; in other words, be adaptable for a wooden pistol grip, or mounted in a stock.

Requirements for the gun would be:

1) The design must be SAFE to shoot.
2) uses a barrel liner in .22LR, so the barrel can be reproduced easily by anyone. †Not limited to some surplus barrel from Numrich, or an expensive barrel blank.
3) Minimum to zero welding or soldering
4) have an action that is legitimate, and not some gangsta zip-gun, or an action that has more than one piece, like a removeable breech block. †The gun must stand on its own.
5) Coil springs only, no flat springs
6) Easily adaptable to pistol or rifle use.
7) Any others?

I'd like to design an action that could be made from a good aluminum alloy if desired. †Possibly even the barrel. †A .22 liner mounted in a 5/8" diameter 7075 round is safe. †Armalite did it with their AR-7, no problems at all.

The action would be inline as much as possible, meaning there would not be significant contouring of metal. †The bulk of the system would be longer lengths of round or rectangular stock. †This would allow one to adapt the action to a rifle or pistol stock of wood, fulfilling requirement 6.

My initial thoughts are some sort of tip-up or break open action like a Stevens, except utilizing an inline striker rather than a hammer. †Keep the sear geometry clean and easy. †I'd make cocking separate from opening the action. †The only thing opening would do at most would be to lever the fired cartridge base up slightly to allow the shooter to pull the case out.

The goal is an action that almost any newbie could fabricate, and one that is modifiable as well if someone wanted to jazz it up.

Thoughts? †This might be a fun project that we could all get involved with, from design, to the fabrication of a prototype, to creation of plans.

This is a great idea! As a new member I was drawn to this thread right away. Going to do some thinking on this one.

Posted: Oct. 22 2013, 11:39 ET


How about a Pfiefer.  The hammer locks the fold-down breech which holds the firing pin?

Will try and post a pic sometime later.

Chuck38
Old guy in Kennesaw Ga where you have to own a gun by law.  Mechanical Engineer since early 60's.  Have a metal lathe and good floor mounted drill press.

Looking for a BenchMaster mill.

Thanks and glad to be here.

Posted: Oct. 22 2013, 13:19 ET


Not the 'zactly right spot for an introduction but good'nuff. Welcome Chuck, hope you hang around and build some guns..Us old guys have to stick together :D

Posted: Oct. 22 2013, 13:28 ET


It was this thread that got me started on this forum :cool: Welcome Chuck38, and thanks for bringing it back up,,, going to read the whole thing again.

Posted: Oct. 23 2013, 01:19 ET


Man, this is the second necropost in the last few days.  Must be Halloween or sumthin!

Posts shall rise from the dead...  Good reading though, gonna mark this for later.

Posted: Oct. 24 2013, 10:41 ET


Wow;
Brings back memories.
What ever happened to Swede?
Bill

Posted: Oct. 24 2013, 14:08 ET


If you mean the Pfiefer SR2, then I hardly think it meets the subject criteria of a 'simple' barreled action.  
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqozkVb1JmU

Last I knew, Swede was on another forum.  Haven't tried to contact or follow him, so don't know his present status.

Posted: Oct. 25 2013, 07:48 ET


The Pfiefer I have is an antique single shot from probably the late 1800's.  It is rated for shorts, longs and long rifle.  Has a hex barrel without any taper.  I meant to post some pics and will eventually, but have been down with either a very bad cold or the flu.

Posted: Oct. 25 2013, 09:51 ET


Quote (Chuck38 @ Oct. 25 2013,07:48)
The Pfiefer I have is an antique single shot from probably the late 1800's. †It is rated for shorts, longs and long rifle. †Has a hex barrel without any taper. †I meant to post some pics and will eventually, but have been down with either a very bad cold or the flu.

Looking forward to seeing it! Get well soon.

Posted: Jan. 28 2014, 15:57 ET


I believe the best way to go is to copy a Remington New Model #6,
easy to make, safe to shoot.  Uses coil springs.

Posted: Jan. 28 2014, 22:06 ET


Quote (bsouthnow @ Oct. 24 2013,07:41)
Wow;
Brings back memories.
What ever happened to Swede?
Bill

Wish I knew.  I sure miss him and a number of the old crew.  

GsT

Posted: Jan. 29 2014, 02:21 ET


Quote (GeneT @ Jan. 28 2014,22:06)
Quote (bsouthnow @ Oct. 24 2013,07:41)
Wow;
Brings back memories.
What ever happened to Swede?
Bill

Wish I knew. †I sure miss him and a number of the old crew. †

GsT

Me too.

Posted: Mar. 31 2014, 19:03 ET


While I have little to add, I will state that this thread is interesting and relevant to my interests.
I recall seeing a simple falling block action made from square tubing somewhere, but it was said in that post that the tubing was aircraft grade and getting the right sizes for a good fit ware hard to get. Still a rather neat idea.

Posted: Jun. 12 2014, 21:08 ET


I keep coming back to this thread,,, it is an "itch" that I just have to "scratch",,,,,,,,,,, so I have started today (and made good progress) on a single shot open bolt rifle.

Each part made so far "could" be done without a lathe or mill. I say "could" because I used my machine tools. ( did my years with only hand tools and I'm not going back)

I'll get some photos up tomorrow with a list of materials.

QUESTION,,, should I post in this tread or start a new one?

Here is an interesting video on open bolt hunting rifles...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XZE_C5YCi4

Posted: Jun. 13 2014, 02:14 ET


I vote new thread.

As I understand it, in the US anyway, no problem with a single shot open bolt .22, it's the repeaters you have problems with as the BATF considers them very easily convertible to full auto.  Which is fine with me as I don't care to own a semi-auto .22 anyway, but do like single shots.

Posted: Jun. 13 2014, 10:39 ET


Quote (Polar_Hunter @ June 13 2014,06:08)
...
QUESTION,,, should I post in this tread or start a new one?
...

I'm gonna vote for a new thread, too; I think that, once someone has been inspired by a general discussion, it would be better for them to start a separate thread rather than for everyone to try to follow different builds on the same threadówe can always cross-link for purposes of discussion.

Whatever you do, have fun! † †:)