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Posted: Nov. 13 2008, 17:20 ET

My next project. Double barrel, .22 caliber, butt reservoir pcp rifle. Design almost finished and first pieces of steel ready to be machined.

Posted: Nov. 13 2008, 17:38 ET

oooooh boy this is going to be GOOD!
*gets popcorn*

Posted: Nov. 13 2008, 18:52 ET

Are you the chap who made the lever action PCP rifle?

Posted: Nov. 13 2008, 19:34 ET

This should be great!  Are you going to make the tank/buttstock?


Posted: Nov. 13 2008, 23:39 ET

Looking forward to this one :p

Posted: Nov. 14 2008, 09:52 ET

Quote (Jaymo @ Nov. 13 2008,20:52)
Are you the chap who made the lever action PCP rifle?

Yes ,I made this one.

Quote (GeneT @ Nov. 13 2008,22:34)
This should be great!  Are you going to make the tank/buttstock?

GeneT, I will make tank from seamless hydraulic tubing and it will be concealed inside the stock.

Posted: Nov. 17 2008, 13:33 ET

Todays work. Bridles and screws.

Posted: Nov. 17 2008, 14:44 ET

Are those bridles NC'ed?  If they're not I'd love to hear how you do them.



Posted: Nov. 17 2008, 16:10 ET

They were made on CNC mill.

Posted: Nov. 26 2008, 20:39 ET

Ah yes. The gorgeous lever action PCP. I'll be watching this thread with much anticipation.

Posted: Nov. 27 2008, 11:56 ET

Today I finished lockplates. First step was milling inside of lockplates, drilling holes and threading for bridle screws.

Next step was making a jig to hold them in place to mill otside contour.

Lockplates were then fastened to a jig an outside contour milled.

And here they are finished.

Posted: Dec. 2 2008, 13:36 ET

Two more parts made.

Posted: Dec. 2 2008, 16:40 ET

Lovely hammers  :cool:

Posted: Dec. 16 2008, 15:22 ET

That's just beautiful! What's the current status? Any updates?

Posted: Jan. 6 2009, 13:25 ET

Sears, tumblers and forend iron done.

My first try at making v-springs.

Spring are still in rough form, I still need to file them to correct shape and then comes tricky part, hardening and tempering.

Posted: Jan. 6 2009, 17:25 ET

I heard the best way to temper a spring like that is in  molten lead, that way you get a very even heat. Although when I temper springs i used to just use the propane grill and that worked fine for me.

Posted: Jan. 7 2009, 12:01 ET

Phantastic work!!
Thanks for sharing your project.

Posted: Jan. 9 2009, 15:53 ET

Do you have any pictures of the setup on those hammers you made? They look like they would be tricky to hold? They turned out great by the way:o)


Posted: Jan. 10 2009, 08:47 ET

Hammers were first milled on one side, than I made a jig to hold them and machine the other side.

Todays work. Mainsprings filed to shape.Will try to heat treat them tomorrow. Fingers crossed.

Posted: Jan. 15 2009, 13:52 ET

Today I finally finished the design. :anim_bounce: I´m quite satisfied how  it turned out.

Posted: Jan. 15 2009, 14:36 ET

I like it!!!

Inovative, Unusual, Beautiful machining and design. It's really going to mess with peoples heads.


Posted: Jan. 31 2009, 11:13 ET

Lovely work! you are a realy an  artist in metal

Posted: Feb. 2 2009, 23:25 ET

Have I mentioned that I wish you were my next door neighbor?

Posted: Feb. 3 2009, 01:55 ET

Quote (Jaymo @ Feb. 02 2009,23:25)
Have I mentioned that I wish you were my next door neighbor?

With the amount of banging, squeaking, grinding etc an average machinist shop put out, you would really wish you are not the next door neighbor    :bangin:

Posted: Feb. 22 2009, 00:14 ET

That would just be music to my ears.

Posted: Mar. 15 2009, 12:35 ET

Today I started work on action body. It all started with big block of tool steel.

After a few operations and a couple of hours later..

you end up with this

Still a few operations to do, but so far so good.
It will look something like this then finished

Posted: Mar. 15 2009, 15:41 ET

What it would be like watching the Mona Lisa being painted.    At least thats what came to mind when I saw this. Nice work.

Posted: Mar. 15 2009, 18:07 ET

Quote (reo @ Mar. 15 2009,15:41)
What it would be like watching the Mona Lisa being painted.    At least thats what came to mind when I saw this. Nice work.

Very well said reo! :anim_beer:

Posted: Mar. 15 2009, 19:30 ET

Wow, just wow! :eek:

Posted: Mar. 15 2009, 19:36 ET

now THATS, a spicy meatball.

i love it, beautifully  drafted, excellently executed.

any chance of finding that model in the library anytime soon? :blues:

Posted: Mar. 17 2009, 11:07 ET

A little bit more done.

Posted: Mar. 17 2009, 11:36 ET

Wow, very nice!

Posted: Mar. 17 2009, 14:57 ET

once again, PCP, you continue to amaze us. you are truly gifted. thank you for sharing this process with us!

Posted: Mar. 17 2009, 16:52 ET

Lovely :icon14:  :icon14:  :icon14:  :notworthy:

Posted: Mar. 18 2009, 13:07 ET

Bottom side finished.

Posted: Mar. 18 2009, 13:23 ET

Pile of parts growing slowly.

Posted: Mar. 18 2009, 15:23 ET

This build is special .  :thumbs:

Posted: Mar. 18 2009, 17:18 ET

This is an amazing project.  This is so far and beyond the normal air gun project that it more closely resembles a metal sculpture than anything else I can think of.

Posted: Mar. 20 2009, 09:51 ET

That is some really beautiful work my Friend.

You sure know how to make that Milling Machine do it's thing.

I see you have not hardened those "V" Springs yet.

They look a little stiff to me, let me know if I am wrong.

Posted: Mar. 21 2009, 08:11 ET

Thanks again to all. It really is not that hard to make things like this with proper tools. Really hard part  for me is yet to come, joining the barrels for instance. I have never tried this before, but hopefully with some help of you I can do it.

Charlie, i already hardened the v springs, I had to do it twice as i tempered them to much on the first try and they didnt come back to shape after first compression. Second time i tempered them on a little lower temperature and now they work fine. They indeed are a little stiff, but I can always thin them a bit and reduce their stiffnes. Will see how it turns out then comes time for test firing.

BTW, your volcanic is looking great , it really will be amazing then finished. :thumbs:

Posted: Mar. 22 2009, 17:10 ET

Rear part of action body done. This is where reservoir gets attached.

Posted: Mar. 26 2009, 14:28 ET

Today I made seats for O-rings in breach face. I had to make special tool to do this.

Posted: Mar. 26 2009, 17:26 ET

It's wonderful to see another update to this. Thanks again for sharing your talent with us. :)

Posted: Mar. 27 2009, 10:39 ET

Holes for valves and transfer ports drilled.

Posted: Mar. 27 2009, 13:05 ET

Wow! :anim_beer:
I am Impressed.
Col David

Posted: Mar. 27 2009, 13:07 ET

Yeah, I'm with third rail. It sure is fun to watch your build.

Posted: Apr. 9 2009, 13:45 ET

Today I fitted the lock plates.

Posted: Apr. 10 2009, 17:15 ET

Nice fit, very nice fit :thumbs:

Posted: Apr. 22 2009, 19:27 ET

Simply amazing.

Posted: Apr. 23 2009, 03:42 ET

:O , Thats some amazing CNC skills!!

WOW, really cool!

Posted: May 4 2009, 15:13 ET

I didn´t do much last couple of weeks, just heat treated lock components and did some polishing. Right lock almost finished, everything functions fine. I had to thin mainsprings a little as they were a bit to strong.

Posted: May 27 2009, 15:01 ET

That's a nice lock!

Posted: Jul. 7 2009, 11:38 ET

Hey PCP I know from your last airgun build that you don't want to give out plans or drawings for your gun and I respect this. However I am sure I speak for quite a few people who want to better see the internal workings of your firearms. So I believe I have found a compromise that you may or may not like which is to post an edrawings file. I remember reading that you used a software that began with a C but was made by the same company as solidworks. You should have the ability then to make edrawings. The benefit of this file format is that it allows us to see your assembly file with out you giving us any dimensions or such. Just something for you to think about. If you need more help or specific information feel free to contact me directly. Also have you made any more progress? And as always beautiful work!

Posted: May 28 2012, 15:23 ET

Well, after three years I finally got back to this project. Finally got a pair of barrels, and spent all saturday turning them down. It was a little bit tricky but turned out nice.

Posted: May 28 2012, 16:50 ET

Those parts are looking really nice!  Great to see you back on this project.

Posted: May 28 2012, 19:41 ET

Yeah.  I don't need plans, because I'll never try at making one, but love the pictures.  Nice.

Posted: May 28 2012, 19:45 ET

I am glad you are back at it.
Your work is simply marvelous.

Posted: May 28 2012, 22:00 ET

its back! :D
thank you PCP!

Posted: Apr. 7 2013, 15:29 ET

A little bit more done.

Posted: Apr. 7 2013, 16:15 ET

Beautiful machine work on a very sleek looking design.  I am always excited to get the updates on this one.  :anim_beer:

Posted: Apr. 7 2013, 20:51 ET

I know from experience that amateur photography makes capturing the quality of work difficult.  However, it normally makes it look worse than it really is...

Even if the work is 'only' as good as it looks in the photos, that's some nice looking work!


Posted: Jun. 9 2013, 13:58 ET

Well, I finally bite the bullet and soldered the barrels. First time doing this, but so far looks ok . Will see how it turns out after cleaning..


Posted: Jun. 9 2013, 21:39 ET

I would love to see these pictures, but unfortunately photobucket seems unwilling to share...

Posted: Jun. 9 2013, 23:20 ET


Posted: Jun. 10 2013, 01:12 ET

Neat, what kind of torch and solder did you use?  Is the brown coating flux or some kind of anti-scale?

Good to see an update on this project.

Posted: Jun. 10 2013, 23:29 ET

I used Sn97Ag3 solder and the torch like on picture. Brown coating is pine resin.

Posted: Jun. 16 2013, 11:38 ET

Pretty again after cleaning all the mess after soldering. Barrels and forend iron fitted.


Posted: Jun. 16 2013, 18:58 ET

If you live next door or within 20 miles, I would like to watch
your lathe and mill work , nice work,

Posted: Jun. 17 2013, 21:36 ET

Man of all the work I have saw here I believe that is some of the most graceful!

Posted: Jun. 17 2013, 23:23 ET

PCP is a true artist.
amazing stuff!!!
thank you for sharing your work. :anim_beer:

Posted: Jun. 18 2013, 00:23 ET

Beautiful work!  :anim_beer:

Posted: Jul. 14 2013, 15:56 ET

Valves,triggers and trigger guard fitted. Fired a few  test shots thru right barrel. Filled to only 100bar it shot cleanly
through 16 mm pine board.
I had to do a little design change regarding locking the barrels. In original design there was just a spring loaded bolt, like in most ordinary break barrel air guns, but it required a little bit to much force to break it open. So I added a lever which pushes on the locking bolt, so now barrels just drop down when you press on checkered button.




Posted: Jul. 14 2013, 19:34 ET

I love that safety.  How did you do the checkering?

Nice work all around.

For some reason the video will not open for me, does it work for anyone else?

Posted: Jul. 15 2013, 04:33 ET

Truly stunning and a work of art.
If you don't mind me asking but how does your valve work?

The video works for my by the way.

Posted: Jul. 15 2013, 11:17 ET

Do you, by chance, have access to a five axis mill?  That is some impressive work for sure.

Posted: Jul. 15 2013, 12:13 ET

The video works for me now as well.  Thx!

Posted: Jul. 15 2013, 13:13 ET

Checkering was done on a 5 axis mill. Sweeping across the surface with an end mill at 45 degrees tilt angle and 0.5 mm stepover.
Valve cross-section:

Posted: Jul. 30 2013, 09:05 ET

PCP this work is amazing as usual.

Just FYI have you ever seen this guy's work? It seems like it would be up your alley: http://www.hegmans.de/theo/luft.htm

And out of curiosity, have you, or ever seen, anyone build a Single-Stroke pneumatic?

Posted: Jul. 31 2013, 14:06 ET

Quote (Sun_God @ July 30 2013,11:05)
PCP this work is amazing as usual.

Just FYI have you ever seen this guy's work? It seems like it would be up your alley: http://www.hegmans.de/theo/luft.htm

And out of curiosity, have you, or ever seen, anyone build a Single-Stroke pneumatic?

Thank you.
I am familiar with mr. Hegmans work. I got inspiration for my lever action on his site.
I have seen a few single stroke pneumatics built on this forum  http://forum.guns.ru/forumindex/8.html.

Posted: Aug. 16 2013, 15:04 ET

Forend rough shaped and forend iron fitted.

Posted: Sep. 15 2013, 13:22 ET

Started working on a stock. Action and trigger guard inletted.

Posted: Sep. 15 2013, 13:52 ET

You, sir, do beautiful work.

Posted: Sep. 15 2013, 15:15 ET

Yes indeed.

Posted: Sep. 16 2013, 00:21 ET

Thank you.

Posted: Sep. 16 2013, 07:57 ET

This is the kind of work that inspires me to do my very best.

Thank You Sir.  :thumbs:


Posted: Sep. 16 2013, 14:36 ET

Glad to see this moving along, your work is always inspirational, perhaps all the more so because they are not conventional firearms.  :thumbs:

Posted: Jan. 11 2014, 10:07 ET

Inletting and rough shaping finished.

Posted: Jan. 11 2014, 10:49 ET

Just beautiful.  Period.

Posted: Jan. 11 2014, 18:34 ET

Looking good!  :anim_beer:

Posted: Jan. 12 2014, 07:58 ET

I just found this post, truly amazing work.

Posted: Jan. 14 2014, 08:18 ET

This is an extremely cool build....my brain wants to turn off every time I try and understand how it works when looking at the cross sections....

Posted: Jan. 16 2014, 13:08 ET

A little bit more done.

Posted: Jan. 20 2014, 01:19 ET

If there is one area where really well machined projects often fall down, it is with graceful stocks.  Hard enough to do either one well.  This one is so nice on both counts.  Beautiful!

Posted: Feb. 5 2015, 13:52 ET

Do you believe this could be accomplished without NC machines at hand? The question is NOT a "left-handed" criticism. I am completely taken with your skill. To suggest that it needs NC equipment in NO WAY suggests it is somehow "less". Instead, my question is simply a practical one. I have wanted to build a double rifle for a very long time but no one "showed me how". Your work here has encouraged me. However, I do not have access to NC machinery. If NC machinery is required, then I am back to "wishing".

This is a stunning product that I am sure you are very proud of. You should be.


Posted: Feb. 5 2015, 14:30 ET

Of course it can be done vithout CNC machines, double rifles in this form are around for more than 100 years. CNC just makes it easier, especially 3d forms are simple vith CNC.  I certainly dont have the patience  to chisel the action from solid peace of steel, like they use to do it.
I have great admiration to oldtimers, they sure had skills that are almost gone today. Imagine what they could do with today's technology.

Posted: Feb. 5 2015, 15:00 ET

PCP beat me to it, and I'll join him in my appreciation of the "old timers," and add what I was going to post:

Paul, PCP’s basic design comes from a time when not only were NC machines yet to be invented, but most gunmakers made their own machinery; there’s nothing to it that can’t be made even by hand. There are some things that are difficult to do without CNC, but the main advantage of CNC is the savings in time and labor, and as long as your interest is in persuing your hobby rather than making a living...

I wouldn’t try making a double as a first project, even if I had CNC machines, but some incredibly beautiful guns have been made without them, and the only thing to overcome is your own lack of knowledge and experience, so… practice, man, practice.

And, oh yea; have fun.

Posted: Feb. 5 2015, 15:12 ET

Have you looked at this fellow's double rifles?  He used to post here but I haven't seen him in a while.

Stolzer and Son

Edited to correct link.

Posted: Feb. 5 2015, 15:53 ET

Thank you for taking the time to respond to me.

I'm not sure how anyone could possibly assume that 150-year-old rifles and shotguns were made with CNC machines. I certainly didn't. I have spent many hours - maybe hundreds - examining the disassembled parts of the many 100+-year-old double rifles and shotguns that I own trying to figure out EXACTLY HOW I might fabricate specific parts. I most certainly understand that they were "chiseled from a solid piece of steel". I also fully appreciate that the skill to do that is acquired through practice. However, I am 63 years old. I have neither the time nor inclination to spend 10-plus years developing the skills to "chisel from a piece of steel" the associated pieces. Neither do I have the time - regardless of the willingness - to become a master engraver or any of several other hand-skills. Also, this would not be my "first project".

Please don't take the above as "snippy". It's not intended to be. Written communications are difficult at best. I am constantly frustrated by the incessant whine by some that posts are too long while out of the other sides of their mouths the same people complain that "you didn't give us enough information". When I try to be brief I get answers like the above. When I try to be 'thorough' I get complaints of being "too wordy". Again, I appreciate that you took the time to respond, but the truth is that I have to "read between the lines" to get the answer to my question. Reading between the lines, I get the following: No - One can NOT do this work on the lathe and mill unless those machines are "computer numerically controlled".

I think my question should have been:
If one wants to use a mill and a lathe and not "chisel by hand from a block of steel" the receiver, can one do it without computer numerically controlled machines?

I have most of the operations figured out. The ones that confound me, and I assume require CNC, are the non-circular, but "rounded" shapes - both positive and negative space. One example would be the outlines of the side-plates. (However, I AM willing to shape those by hand, having already done that more than once.)The big challenge to me is the rear of the breech of the receiver. I simply cannot figure out how to form those shapes without "chiseling" or CNC. Making "locks" by hand is not that big of a deal. However, if I could make bridles and tumblers on a NON CNC mill, that would be a big deal to me.

Please correct me if I have interpreted your responses incorrectly, and accept my apology in advance if I offended you. It was most certainly not intended.


Posted: Feb. 5 2015, 16:04 ET

O'Possum/TX - VERY interesting firearm, to me. However, I don't really quite understand its use.


Posted: Feb. 6 2015, 00:26 ET

Wellll, one would assume that it is intended for use harvesting rather large game.
Either that or as a near ultimate stopping rifle to end mine's bigger'n yours discussions.

Posted: Feb. 6 2015, 00:46 ET

I’m certainly not offended, gitano, but it seems to me that you understand that you didn’t make yourself clear when you asked the question, a question that I think that we who responded answered as best as we could—I’ll re-phrase your question as I now understand it, as I would have asked it, and then answer your own re-phrased question as best I can:

How would one go about maching the complex compound contours of this rifle on conventional—not NC—machines?

If you’re not interested in developing your bench skills you might as well quit reading and look for another project, however, it would not take ten years to develope the skills necessary to do the kind of work shown below; depending on your mechanical aptitude and manual dexterity, I think that 4 - 6 hours of practice for a few weeks or months should find you with the skill necessary to this kind of work, while deveoping the skill to do fine bas-relief engraving of plants and animals would take years. This kind of work, too, has advantages over die-sinking in that it doesn’t require nearly as much precision—mistakes can be hidden—and its easier to keep in mind the goal—if you forget that you’re working on a negative, while sinking a die, you can easily turn a $60,000+ die or mold into a piece of scrap.

The most difficult area to machine on the rifle shown in this thread is shown below, where two opposinf radii meet with a roughly spherical projection. It has to be understood that the picture on the right is not what the part looked like when it was removed from the mill; it has been significantly bench-worked, and by someone skilled at benchworking, a craftsman—the OP might be an old-school engraver or a die-sinker. It should also be understood that there is nothing here that can’t be done on a conventional mill with formed-cutters and the dying art of Template Milling.

I don’t know if you’re familiar with template milling, but when the part was finished on the machine it would look fairly much like the drawing on the left below, except that the spherical element would be roughed, there would be slight ridges and tool-marks, and the intersections of the two opposing radii with the spherical element—the bright area to the left of the sphere in the picture—would have some bumps to be filed out. None of this bench-work would require a chisel; it could all be done with a good set of rifflers, and I don’t mean bargain imports.

The outside of the wall around the side plate could be almost completly done with a ball-end mill and a template that might take 4 or 5 hours to make; the hardest part of that would be blending the wall’s radius with the radius on the underside of the reciever, but that would be the only bench-work aside from polishing out the toolmarks along the wall.

I’ve answered your question, which I believe was appropriate to this thread, but going farther on Contour Milling here woud be hijacking the thread, I think, and if you are interested in asking more questions about contour milling, or template milling, I think it would be best to start another thread… I do hope that you’ll persue this, tho; this can be very enjoyable work, and very satisfying.

Posted: Feb. 6 2015, 02:55 ET

I thank you very much for the excellent response, Darkside! You have indeed answered my question, and revitalized my hope. The time you suggest is well within my personal 'bank account' of time I am willing to invest. I am sufficiently confident of my hand-eye skills to satisfy my personal aesthetic standards, (and even those of my friends).

That being said, and my interest still very much intact, I will start another thread on this subject.

Thanks again,

Posted: Feb. 6 2015, 13:39 ET

Darkside, the picture on the right is exactly that  part came from the machine. Finish cut was done  with ball endmill 1 mm diameter.

Posted: Feb. 6 2015, 13:46 ET

1mm ball-end cutter. Hmm...

If I can figure the 'rigging' of 'template milling', I might just be able to pull off what I want.


Posted: Feb. 6 2015, 14:35 ET

Quote (PCP @ Feb. 06 2015,22:39)
Darkside, the picture on the right is exactly that  part came from the machine. Finish cut was done  with ball endmill 1 mm diameter.

WOW! How many passes did it take to get that spherical section, and the area where the three surfaces meet, that smooth?

That is just almost enough to win me over to CNC.   :D

Posted: Feb. 6 2015, 14:56 ET

0.075 mm  stepover,  feed 200 mm/min, 25 minutes for one side. It can go faster, but I was limited with spindle speed, 8000 rpm.

Posted: Feb. 6 2015, 22:43 ET

Quote (PCP @ Feb. 06 2015,23:56)
0.075 mm  stepover,  feed 200 mm/min, 25 minutes for one side. It can go faster, but I was limited with spindle speed, 8000 rpm.

Oh yea; hand feed would be suicide; hand feeding with 0.075 mm steps might take 4-1/2 hours per side—not counting set-up time.

"I just flew in from Miami, and boy are my arms tired!"    :(

FWIW, my conversion calculator shows .075mm to equal .00", which is a little less than I want to cut.    :D

Doing this by hand I usually go for .020 to .030" steps and expect to spend more time at the bench.

Posted: Feb. 6 2015, 22:54 ET

I've spent more than 4-1/2 hours "per side" on some of the projects I have tackled.

I live "at the end of the road". What that means more often than not is that if you want it AT ALL you have to do it yourself, AND time is often not the most precious commodity. If I could finish the rough shaping of a double gun receiver in 9 hours of machine work I'd be doing handsprings! .020" - 0.030" passes sounds like it's right in my wheelhouse.


Posted: Feb. 6 2015, 22:59 ET

0.075 mm = 0.003"  A finishing cut in regular language...

Posted: Feb. 7 2015, 11:32 ET

This is actually first time I have seen this thread. Probably I seen that there was a thread going but being busy and not being interested in air guns I never read this one...Totally awesome build :thumbs:

  And a comment on any person wanting to crank out a side by side without cnc..I am a big believer in starting simple and working up to increasingly complex projects.. I have a cheap Boito shotgun receiver that had been de-milled and sold as paper weight..What makes it interesting is that it was designed to be manufactured  quick and cheap..The upper and lower tangs are a single forging that were welded onto back end of receiver.. Before it was welded on it was easy to get into the rear recesses of the receiver with drills and endmills.....So all I am saying is that with enough thinking and planning a man with simple machinery can certainly build one.

Posted: Feb. 7 2015, 12:03 ET

  AW is correct. Its not as hard as one might expect. What a lot of people don't understand is that a lot of the making of side locks and box locks is smoke and mirrors. The high grades that are machined the old way, normally have removable lower tangs to hold the triggers.
  The nice upper tang that slopes gracefully downward seldom starts that way. Most of the time the tang is first machined straight out from the back of the receiver or even bent back to allow entry with drills and long reach end mills. All the cuts are simple X, Y and Z and the action is never taken out of the vise until its time to angle the the receiver for the firing pin ports.    
   When all that nice machining is done to house the hammers, ejectors and firing pins is completed, the upper tang is heated and then carefully bent and sculpted with rawhide hammers over a hard, oil  soaked rawhide covered anvil. The oil keeps the leather from burning and the leather protects the finish on the underside of the tang and the hard padding keeps the tang from gathering kinks or hard angle bends.
   They don't have magic machines that reach into tight little spots where modern machines fear to travel. They just change the rules of common physics and mechanics so they can win the game.
   The older receivers did not have welded on tangs simply because the welding processes of the day were not fast enough or reliable enough to do it that way. With today's TIGs and MIGS its a different story and we can add material anywhere we want and only lose a few percent of strength and virtually no cosmetics. So why not use them?
   Smoke an mirrors. Just smoke and mirrors.